[Card ban idea] List

Lech wrote:

There are 13 major clans, 4 out of those have dominate in-clan. Why the fuck i have to go into final table of tournament and see 3-4 decks playing dominate ?

Can you please back this claim up?
Could you list, say, the finalist decks of the last 3 tournaments you participated in?

Surely both sets sold out quicker than most expansions (many of which never sold out while WW was still publishing VTES), but superfast could only perhaps be applied to HotB Starters. Please stop spreading ungrounded rumors with no base in reality!

I had no reason to not believe it before this. In my juvenile eyes back in the days people seemed to buy them in the bulk. Then again, I was young.

Cheers for the data, pops!

Would you say that the sells weren't okay though? I'm still living in the assumption that it wasn't exactly the sales that got the game plugged, but a corp choice.

Hardly matters now though, since we got a better game for it.

Could you list, say, the finalist decks of the last 3 tournaments you participated in?

This. TWDA is a good thing, but it's only 1/5 of the truth - most of the tournament finalist decks out there are great decks with great players.

Lönkka wrote:

Can you please back this claim up?
Could you list, say, the finalist decks of the last 3 tournaments you participated in?

I can't, my memory isn't that good to remember exact decks and table configurations. However, last 6 twd have 4 decks with dominate, which partially back-up my claim. Overall amount of decks with dominate show that it's good and way overrepresented.

Lech wrote:

That's quite a dodge. You are against easy pulled fangs/ZG+DBR combat ? Non-repeat actions ? Well, what i can say, you defend current top cards because they are here, and those combos were also in the game and i don't hear "guys, maybe unban those, what about returning jyhad players?"

So, that was me who was concerned about returning Jyhad players, and I'll concede that my concern is not really a widespread one, especially with printed cards coming back into the fold.

Now, to your point about Pulled Fangs/Zip gun/Dragon Breath Rounds, and how that these cards were changed long ago somehow legitimizes the concept of banning Govern today: changes to PF/ZG/DBR were done in an entirely different context and for entirely different reasons than "equalizing" the card pool (which is the reason you gave for banning Govern). First, there's a huge difference between changing cards that easily allow one to ruin another player's ready region, thus depriving a player from being able to play the game, and changing/banning a card that both enables a lot of decks and also leads to quick ousts (which Govern does in spades). Second, the fact that Govern appears in so many TWDA entries indicates to me that people obviously like playing with the card, otherwise it would not appear as much as it does. Banning a card that this many people seem to like because it's "overrepresented" probably isn't the best idea, and I wonder if it would just piss off a lot of people. The original PF/ZG/DBR never was "overrepresented" to this degree, and that's why there was little outcry about the changes to those cards. Third, the changes to PF/ZG/DBR were done at the top by the game designer at the time. So I trust there was a really good reason to make those changes.The fact that none of the current game designers have chimed into this thread tells me that there is no really good reason to ban Govern.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

I'm not sure I understand you here. If all you're talking about is fixing cards in the context of competitive, tournament play, how in any way would this affect bringing in new players? In that case, the game isn't being "cleaned up" for new players, it's being "cleaned up" for people who play in tournaments.

This whole time I've only been talking about competitive. Bringing new players into the competitive scene. Making changes to the game for the health of competitive play.

Again, why would I come to a forum to convince a guy who plays with 3-4 of his friends that he shouldn't use Govern. Or any card for that matter. You and your friends can play by whatever rules make the game most fun to you.

For those of us who play competitively, we have to all play with the same card pool and by the same rules. I think the card pool needs adjusted to accommodate continued competition and the rules needs some adjusting as well (contesting vampires is my main gripe). These are only opinions though.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Now, to your point about Pulled Fangs/Zip gun/Dragon Breath Rounds, and how that these cards were changed long ago somehow legitimizes the concept of banning Govern today: changes to PF/ZG/DBR were done in an entirely different context and for entirely different reasons than "equalizing" the card pool (which is the reason you gave for banning Govern).

Actually, the changes to PF and ZP were done in the (in?)famous 7/7 rulings, which were generally done to rebalance the cardpool, at least one of those (PF) explicitly so:

groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/t3BWHkOrdyE/1jH5udLMdiYJ

First, there's a huge difference between changing cards that easily allow one to ruin another player's ready region, thus depriving a player from being able to play the game, and changing/banning a card that both enables a lot of decks and also leads to quick ousts (which Govern does in spades).

Then compare this to the RtI ruling, initially changed in the 7/7 rulings, then later banned - the main reason for that change was that it enabled sudden/fast ousts with a huge bleed.

Second, the fact that Govern appears in so many TWDA entries indicates to me that people obviously like playing with the card, otherwise it would not appear as much as it does. Banning a card that this many people seem to like because it's "overrepresented" probably isn't the best idea, and I wonder if it would just piss off a lot of people. The original PF/ZG/DBR never was "overrepresented" to this degree, and that's why there was little outcry about the changes to those cards.

Again, RtI would be a better comparison - it was very common in tournament decks before the 7/7 rulings, along Tomb of Ramses III and Thoughts Betrayed. All of these cards were changed despite their popularity at the time.

Third, the changes to PF/ZG/DBR were done at the top by the game designer at the time. So I trust there was a really good reason to make those changes.The fact that none of the current game designers have chimed into this thread tells me that there is no really good reason to ban Govern.

The 'really good reason' was that it was necessary to rebalance the cardpool. This thread is arguing that by the same criteria these changes are equally justified.