What no sticky?

FWIW, I don't think it's a good idea for the VEKN to create any new-cards at all, unless these cards will be distributed as all previous sets, which seems unlikely.

Thing is, I believe that if *new* PDF-printed cards will become tournament-legal all it will do is drive a wedge in the already small community. There *is* a difference between an official company-designed expansion, complete with all bells and whistles and a random bunch of PDF-cards fantasized up by a few die-hard fans in Spain (this is not meant as an attack on the Spanish players by any means, just an exaggeration to get my point accross).

What guarantees do we have new cards are community supported? What guarantees do we have the cards are playtested properly? Heck, I don't think we actually agree we even NEED new cards. Will they be tournament legal? And if not, what's the point?

I for one wouldn't be interested in playing cards from my printer and would likely stop attending tournaments and sell my valuable cards while they still have that value. I'd keep a few decks to play with friends and that will be that. Others may feel the same.

Another thing to consider are the less obvious consequences of one PDF-set: there will be another. And another. And another. They're easy to create and there are probably dozens of people that can churn out 1-2 reasonably balanced cards a week. The forums are a good example of this. Of course, eventually there will be "re-PDF's" of valuable, wanted cards, thus removing the entire "C" from the CCG. Not even mentioning the complete death of trading.

I mean, we might as well allow people to play with color-copies of Villein and Summon History at tournaments...

Izaak wrote:

I mean, we might as well allow people to play with color-copies of Villein and Summon History at tournaments...

And this would be a problem because ... ?

If the game isn't being, and isn't going to be, produced commercially, then why exactly shouldn't we allow people to play with duplicate home printed cards?
I know I and probably everyone else on this board has spent a lot of money on cards over the years. But I spent that money to have fun, not to compare the size of my collection to that of my neighbours. If home printed cards were tournament legal, it would significantly reduce the entry barrier for new players, and go a long way towards leveling the playing field.

At the moment, this is probably too big a step to take. It is something that should definitely be considered for the future though.

If home printed cards were tournament legal, it would significantly reduce the entry barrier for new players, and go a long way towards leveling the playing field.

Except that card collections are not a limiting factor. New players are shunned away by an extremely complex, confusing set of rules in a card game that is insanely difficult to master AFTER you got the hang of the rules.

Staple cards are cheap and plenty. Playgroups give out hundreds if not thousands of cards to new players. No, they will not own any significant amount of Summon Histories and 40 Villeins. You can build a TWD for literally $ 3,- worth of e-bay cards. Thrown in 5-6 boxes of superdiscount boosters from W&N and you're looking at a HUGE pile of playable cards and decks for under €150,-. That's pretty damn cheap in a world where a console game you play for a month costs €59,-

If your argument is that not everybody can play Ashur Tablets, Villeins and Summon Histories as has seemingly been the case throughout this forum's existance, well then I disagree everyone SHOULD be able to play those.

Limited card collections encourage a more varied and creative metagame as people will still be trying to find new ways to make decks work within the limits of their cardpool. Introduce unlimited cardpools and you will see competitive play turn into 5-10 superdecks with variants inbetween. The best example of this is obviously Magic, where limited cardpools have no meaning because of the existance of 4CL.

cnislev wrote:

Players come up with ideas, they get feedback, and VEKN/design team takes it onboard and tweaks/game tests before sanctioning and e.g. printing. This may happen already, but as I've said this should happen openly.

I'm not sure that you've made your case as to why card design happening openly is better than card design happening in a closed environment. Could you state your argument clearly for us?

cnislev wrote:

You must know the Hasbro management team and their legal department very well, and you must also be a specialist IP lawyer to come to {the conclusion that Hasbro would sue}.

You're taking money away from a company, using their trademarks and patents, and you don't think that you'll be sued???

cnislev wrote:

Even if you are, you should remember that it shouldnt be too difficult to build a structure that would be difficult to sue, and which would in any event have no or few assets against which a lawsuit could be enforced which would make the legal spend very high, not to mention the bad PR from suing a player community that just wants to develop (not to make a profit) a game they love and which they have built through two decades. If I were Hasbro, I would think twice. If on top of that they are given an offer (say x cents per card printed), I would expect them to at least consider it. It is not as black and white as you say.

Ahhh I see that you've changed your tune now, and you DO believe that you'll be sued. You must know the Hasbro management team and their legal department very well, and you must also be a specialist IP lawyer to come to that conclusion.

Seriously, though. As you seem to feel that it shouldn't be too difficult to build a structure that would be difficult to sue, I suggest that you create that legal structure, then let Johannes Walch know that you are ready to start printing cards, and see what he says. Not that you have to pay any attention to what the head of the VEKN says, since you could just start doing it all on your own, but you've been talking about the community so I figure that you'll try to operate under the community and its leadership that is already solidly in place.

cnislev wrote:

All I would like to see from VEKN would be a general statement about how the development of cards will take place/what their strategy for the game will be in the next couple of years.

If Johannes Walch released a press release that stated something like "The VEKN currently has no specific plan to release official V:TES cards. When we do have a specific plan, we will let the community here know." then would that be the end of it for you until new cards came out? Or would you continue to respond and request more information and ask monthly if the VEKN has any plans for new cards yet? I ask because right now there is one non-official person (me) having a discussion with you and the few others in this thread about this topic, and we're already on page3, and it's been discussed before that the VEKN leadership has real jobs and are doing this out of their spare time, so they likely don't have time to respond to every player's questions.

cnislev wrote:

I would also like them to e.g. approve of sticky threads where players can give their input and opinions on what they would like to see in new expansions, and an assurance that this will be taken into account by VEKN.

You want "an assurance" that every suggestion, opinion, demand, and threat will be taken into account? You are kidding, right?

If you're not, please explain to us why taking every suggestion, opinion, demand, and threat of every player, with or without design experience, with any level of V:TES experience, into account would be useful to the construction of appropriately balanced and/or themed cards? Some sort of evidence that this has been a good procedure for a company in the past would be helpful.

cnislev wrote:

The NCs and princes are not democratically elected (at least not in my country),...

If your country has leadership problems, you should bring it to the VEKN leadership.

cnislev wrote:

...and neither is VEKN/the design team as I understand it.

As I understand it as well. But, unlike you, I trust that the VEKN leadership will elect to the design team the appropriate individuals with the appropriate experience to do an appropriate job in card design, if and when that ever happens.

cnislev wrote:

This may be fine, but then VEKN/the design team needs to gain authority and acceptance by engaging with and involving the community in another way.

The VEKN already has the authority, obviously. They already have *my* acceptance, based on me knowing who they are and what they have said and done in the past. If they don't yet have *your* acceptance, then perhaps you should go back through Google Groups and see what they have said and done in the past. If that's not something you can (or will) do, then you should trust players like me, who have been around for 15+ years, who know each and every member of the VEKN, and trust them to do the right thing.

cnislev wrote:

People like glaswanderer have come up with really cool cards artwork (I would rate most of it top 30% all time VTES) and some good cards. The very minimum that should be done by VEKN would be to recognise this effort, e.g. by the above sticky and public statements.

The very minimum that should be done *in your opinion*. I personally don't think they should do *anything* about fan-based cards, other than Pascal responding to specific rules questions about how a fan-based card would interact within the official game. If Pascal (or whomever) feels that a message should be moved into a 'sticky' position, I'm sure he'll do so.

Izaak wrote:

Thing is, I believe that if *new* PDF-printed cards will become tournament-legal all it will do is drive a wedge in the already small community. There *is* a difference between an official company-designed expansion, complete with all bells and whistles and a random bunch of PDF-cards fantasized up by a few die-hard fans....

What is the difference? When WW/CCP ran the game, we had one person designing all the cards. Now, we will have one or more persons designing all the cards. Why does a corporation backing-up that one person mean something to you?

Or, are you saying that since it was White Wolf's property, that was ok, and now it isn't? Then how did you feel about WOTC designing cards? How about if Fantasy Flight or Rio Grande bought the rights to V:TES and started designing cards, how would you feel then?

Izaak wrote:

What guarantees do we have new cards are community supported? What guarantees do we have the cards are playtested properly?

What guarantees did you have for the last 15 years?

Izaak wrote:

Heck, I don't think we actually agree we even NEED new cards.

Your agreement isn't necessary for the VEKN to create new cards, just as it wasn't necessary for the last 15 years of expansions that some players didn't want or didn't like the idea of.

Izaak wrote:

Will they be tournament legal? And if not, what's the point?

Who knows? I doubt that the VEKN would waste their time creating non-official non-tournament legal cards.

Izaak wrote:

I for one wouldn't be interested in playing cards from my printer and would likely stop attending tournaments and sell my valuable cards while they still have that value. I'd keep a few decks to play with friends and that will be that. Others may feel the same.

I'll buy your cards. Send me an email with your list and I'll give you a fair price for them.

How others would feel isn't the primary determining factor in whether or not new PDF-based cards would get created. Thank god.

I have a hope that the VEKN will publish (either by printing actual cards and selling them at cost or for a small profit to be used to support the tournament scene OR by sticking PDFs up and maybe charging people a fee to cover download limits) a new set.

There are things in the way; the biggest being Intellectual Property Rights and I wouldn't bet on Hasbro AND CCP not being litigious about it and suing the VEKN.

Sure, I would like to know WHO might be on the design team (beyond the obvious person of Pascal Bertrand)... mostly so I can get to know them, know the way they think and see how cards may be developed for the future.

I DON'T want to see some of the unbalanced, half-assed, barrow-pushing cards that have been lobbed around the forums (and I'm not saying I'm not immune to a little barrow-pushing as well). There are a number of people who have put up a steady flurry of cards, with very very variable levels of balance, usability and so on. I'm not saying that my opinions on balanced are the only opinions, and neither that others have a monopoly on card balance either... but there have been a lot of really wild cards already put out here as ideas.

Would I like to be considered for the design team? Sure, it would be a great honour. I'd love the chance to create for a game that has been a fantastic entertainment for years. I'd love the chance to play Devil's Advocate and have others argue why a card design was balanced/appropriate (even if I already thought so). I'd love to be involved in helping shape the game beyond just playing cards, having ideas and bringing new players into the game. It would be a lot of intellectual and social fun; just like a good VTES game is. Plus, I do think we play the game differently down here in Australia and I'd like to bring some of what we do down here to a more global audience.

Do I think I'd seriously get considered? Probably not to be honest. I don't have the big tournament winning history of guys like Ben Peal, Hugh Angseeing, etc, etc, etc. I'd be guessing their names would appear on the "Design Team Nominations" list FAR above mine. Heck, Disco Stu of Melbourne would probably come a long way above mine just based on what he's done with his Kindred of the East Set.

I would like to have a list for the Design Team (just to know who they are) and to think that maybe cards created in the forum might spark their interest and attention. But in the end, I like the mystery that comes from the Design Team operating a 'closed shop' like it has in the past.