file As predicted by somebody (lol) shit hit the fan again

20 Nov 2018 17:19 - 20 Nov 2018 17:53 #91930 by ReverendRevolver
Several things:

Sects-
"Independent " has been a very broad umbrella term for vtes since both sets immediately following "V:TES".
Giovanni, Ravnos, FoS, Assamites and others were basically given a "non-sect" then and it continued to exist with the inclusion of Sabbat and Laibon and Anarch was folded into the same "non-sect" as well.
It began as "Non-Camarilla" because it was needed to differentiate the 4 indy clans from the previously extant ones.
Default sects are messy to have exist, and thier removal is equally as messy, but removal is probably more intuitive for new players learning the game.

Fluff wise, Assamites are split. FoS have 2 primary factions, but who knows what the Serpents of the Light are reduced to. "Independent " should make sense for truly unaligned members of both of these clans. Kementeri stands far from FoS and the sects. Tariq stands apart for other reasons.

Also, the Assamites loyal to the Sabbat, Tal'Mahe'Ra, Cam(and eastern cam) , etc aren't loyal to the warrior caste led "main" clan.
There are also "converts " to Sets ways from other clans.

There is no reason to jump to crazy, but Sect isn't a bad design space to look into, since until very recently, 4+ distinct sects in thier own were grouped together with unaligned vamps.

Disciplines-
Vtes has done blood magics wrong for ages.
:nec: :tha: are tons of separate paths.

:pro: :ser: is more a problem, but
I see no reason to worry about them; both could certainly benefit new cards.

The smoothest option (and I'm certain everyone will hate this) is to make Oblivion cards that utilize a symbol that is a split between :obt: and :nec: and make them playable by a vamp with either discipline.

Making them literally interchangeable I cant weigh in on until I read the book.

Lastly ,

Paradox Just announced that we should anticipate changes. If Onyx Path rolls out more metaplot stuff, that's probably going to shift things into a far more broadly playable setting than "gens 8to16, nothing else." And cramming the Sabbat and several bloodlines into a forgotten closet somewhere.
May as well wait for the dust to settle.

What we have previously done that was jumping right on later retconned metaplot stuff includes Gilbraiths Red Death novel tie in.

Opposite that, we still have the extinct!Tremere. For years.

Its probably worth looking into antitribbu merging, especially with !malks and Madness Network, and antitribbu clan cards that enable things, like is there some torrie tech that breaks palla grande or something?

The one thing that's easily worth looking into is Tremere splitting between remaining cam and Carnas faction (which is, if memory serves, backed by Tremere-in-Goratrix-body)

Also, Ben, maybe we could be involved metaplot wise:
A global storyline to determine the new clan of death between Giovanni, Samedi, HoS. (Maybe add a stipulation about mixed crypts with old Cappadocians being Cappadocian)
Last edit: 20 Nov 2018 17:53 by ReverendRevolver.
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20 Nov 2018 17:59 - 20 Nov 2018 18:07 #91931 by jamesatzephyr

Lech wrote: Can, but the oblivion ISN'T nec+obt combo, it's one discipline that is shared by Lasombra and Giovanni. Therefore it's stupid to think that they need to possess both classic disciplines to use oblivion cards.


Again, people can have different opinions to you on how best to implement something in V:TES without being stupid.

Having cards that include lots of obt or nec levels (possibly including superiors) is not necessarily simple in terms of its impact on the power-level of cards - including whether it provides a significant boost to existing crypt cards. Does upping the number of vampires with, say, dom/obt and dom/nec (who now meaningfully combine into one crypt) who can play cross-over Oblivion cards have unpleasant side-effects, for example?

It's also worth thinking carefully about the Bloodlines. Will all of them still exist in V5? Will they exist in the same way? For example, if Necromancy and Obtenebration merge to form Oblivion, I could imagine a future V5 Samedi dropping to three clan disciplines (Obft/For/Than) - but with some more necromantic-themed powers ending up in an expanded Thanatosis. Would Black Chantry/White Wolf/Paradox then want, thematically, V:TES Samedi equally involved in Oblivion, because they keep playing all those Oblivion cards available to Obt or Nec? If Samedi aren't part of V5 (or aren't part of it for some
considerable time), do BC/WW/P have views on whether Oblivion-inspired V:TES cards should be easily accessible to V:TES Samedi? Has anyone started having any of these discussions?

Of course, keep telling yourself that people with different concerns to you are stupid, if that helps.
Last edit: 20 Nov 2018 18:07 by jamesatzephyr.

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20 Nov 2018 19:30 #91934 by Lech

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Lech wrote: Having cards that include lots of obt or nec levels (possibly including superiors) is not necessarily simple in terms of its impact on the power-level of cards - including whether it provides a significant boost to existing crypt cards. Does upping the number of vampires with, say, dom/obt and dom/nec (who now meaningfully combine into one crypt) who can play cross-over Oblivion cards have unpleasant side-effects, for example?

Of course, keep telling yourself that people with different concerns to you are stupid, if that helps.


Higher and better crypt selection for oblivion users isn't that concerning when we consider that all clans have already double crypt except Lasombra, Ravnos, Assamites and Giovanni. Assuming that normal necromancy and obtenebration cards are here to stay, we can assume that including off-clan members in typical decks isn't that likely. It's wholly different subject when we ban all nec/obt cards and give them new :OBL: discipline from the ground up, but i doubt it will happen at all. There are multiple valid concerns, but creation of OBT+NEC combo requiring both disciplines isn't one of them. Feel free to be offended by this point.


:laso: :CEL: :DOM: :OBT: :POT: :cap8:
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

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20 Nov 2018 19:55 - 20 Nov 2018 19:55 #91935 by Kraus

Lech wrote: Not nec+obt, Nec OR Obt, having either works. I don't gen how anyone can be stupid enough to suggest Nec+Obt combo for oblivion cards ...

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Last edit: 20 Nov 2018 19:55 by Kraus.
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20 Nov 2018 22:01 #91938 by jamesatzephyr

Lech wrote: Higher and better crypt selection for oblivion users isn't that concerning when we consider that all clans have already double crypt except Lasombra, Ravnos, Assamites and Giovanni.


It occurs to me that designers may have considered that when designing and developing previous groups, and the disciplines to go alongside them. There are some very fearsome decks out there for those clans, which may well have developed in a quite different way if they had double the crypt to play with. Giovanni Powerbleed can be really extremely good, and reasonably resistant to bounce given the power (i.e. not a ton of stealth) nature of it, but the Giovanni have a harder time putting together a super-optimized crypt than, say, the Dementation Malks and !Malks. Lasombra breed-boon is, for my money, one of the best breed-boon options in the game. Ravnos Week of Nightmares is terrifying, but you don't have a sideline of Ravnos antitribu to survive the week. Similarly, The Eldest are Kholo with Tsunda is immense, but her supporting cast are more limited than a similar deck from a clan with a discipline spread that has a wider crypt selection might allow for.

See also: the Bloodlines aren't designed in the same way as a full clan, because when something is different it makes sense to consider its differences in context.

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22 Nov 2018 16:11 #91968 by Ratadin
In general, I think the whole "default sect" doesn't work properly. It kind of makes sense if vampires appeared out of thin air, in which case they should be from the default sect (like, if suddenly a random gangrel appeared, it would probably be independent, wouldn't it?). But right now almost all of the instances in which new vampires are introduce into the game besides influencing them out from the crypt are by embracing them (or similar effects, like the troops). I sincerely don't understand why Anarch childes came into the world with a Camarilla or sabbat visa. Is there a Sabbat priest always lurking behind every single anarch lasombra waiting for a new childe to be born to spread the word of the sabbat? Special mention to the freaking third tradition and creation rites, because not even freaking princes can convince their lasombra childe to stay as a camarilla.

An inherited sect makes the most sense, maybe with certain exceptions (which I think should be specified on the card).
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