file Number of VtES players

27 Aug 2019 13:58 #96586 by self biased
Replied by self biased on topic Number of VtES players

Mewcat wrote: Every ccg needs to balance having different things to do with avoiding a negative play experience. Clearly some variance in what constitutes a negative play experience from player to player exists but the aggregation of this info should be very important to designers.


oh, I agree wholeheartedly! I have an 8k word essay tucked away somewhere on game balance in 4th & 5th Edition 40k and whether the burden of playing fair lies with the players making reasonable choices or with the game designers to give the players choices that are harder to abuse.

My point is that in any game, mechanics can only do so much to mitigate someone intentionally playing like a jerk. There's always going to be some playstyle, army list, or deck that's going to be viewed as abusive of mechanics. The goal of those of us who seek to recruit new players is to cultivate a more supportive community. Like I mentioned previously: If a veteran player gets their jollies by dunking new players by using abusive strategies, and that puts the new player off the game, they're hurting their playgroup by doing this.

I'm also hesitant to use attendance numbers for major tournaments as the metric for player engagement. The game is still waking up after being out of print for almost a decade, and there's only just now been a release targeted at bringing in new players announced. Hopefully we'll see a big media push once we get a good jumping off point for new players. Additionally I know in my own playgroup of about 8, only one other person besides myself is even interested in tournament play, and the last time either of us attended a tournament was three years ago! We must consider that not all V:tes players enjoy engaging in competitive play.

Elotar, I'm curious: as the NC for Russia, do you have any data for V:tes tournaments held in your country? If so, what do the numbers look like?
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27 Aug 2019 14:04 #96587 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic Number of VtES players

Ashur wrote: Sorry elotar, I have to ask, what is this topic about? What is the question to discuss?


Ask Kraus - it was discussion about Nosferatu, but then parts of it was broken out of context and split into topic about combat and then again into this one.

So generally, as I've said long time ago - all topics here, other than reports about Stanislava winning one more tournament, are about frustration of players with the game failing to fulfill it's potential.

:splat: NC Russia
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27 Aug 2019 14:17 #96588 by Mewcat
Replied by Mewcat on topic Number of VtES players

self biased wrote:

Mewcat wrote: Every ccg needs to balance having different things to do with avoiding a negative play experience. Clearly some variance in what constitutes a negative play experience from player to player exists but the aggregation of this info should be very important to designers.


oh, I agree wholeheartedly! I have an 8k word essay tucked away somewhere on game balance in 4th & 5th Edition 40k and whether the burden of playing fair lies with the players making reasonable choices or with the game designers to give the players choices that are harder to abuse.

My point is that in any game, mechanics can only do so much to mitigate someone intentionally playing like a jerk. There's always going to be some playstyle, army list, or deck that's going to be viewed as abusive of mechanics. The goal of those of us who seek to recruit new players is to cultivate a more supportive community. Like I mentioned previously: If a veteran player gets their jollies by dunking new players by using abusive strategies, and that puts the new player off the game, they're hurting their playgroup by doing this.


You cant let the lunatucs run the asylum. In any ccg there are always enough "winning is fun" guys to ruin it for anyone not having the same opinion. The whole idea is problematic. Turns a leisure activity into a zero sum game.

The designers have to figure out where that line should be. Clearly players will enjoy some parts of the game and not like other parts. The good parts need focus and the bad parts addressed.

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27 Aug 2019 14:50 #96590 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic Number of VtES players

self biased wrote: oh, I agree wholeheartedly! I have an 8k word essay tucked away somewhere on game balance in 4th & 5th Edition 40k and whether the burden of playing fair lies with the players making reasonable choices or with the game designers to give the players choices that are harder to abuse.


It's cool that 40k is mentioned - the game where disconnect between potential and execution is even more wild than in VtES.

self biased wrote: My point is that in any game, mechanics can only do so much to mitigate someone intentionally playing like a jerk. There's always going to be some playstyle, army list, or deck that's going to be viewed as abusive of mechanics.


You getting it backwards - game mechanics should be such, that even jerks are forced to play nice to not lose. There are something like in in VtES, where helping crosstable is beneficial to you, for example.

self biased wrote: Elotar, I'm curious: as the NC for Russia, do you have any data for V:tes tournaments held in your country? If so, what do the numbers look like?[/i]


In Russia tournament activity mostly not exists anymore. There was a time several years ago when our WoD community was actively organizing various events, including VtES tournaments, there were regular visits of players from other cities and even countries (Belarus,lol), but it quickly dried up - after last years national there are no tournament ideas in the works. So actually this is the reason why I've started to think that in the game, which looks so cool to me, there may be some problems.

Here is a roots of the big difference between my understanding of the game and what many others here think - as in Russia most of the VtES players are not from CCG crowd who decided to play one more card game, but WoD players who are interested in one more way to play in beloved setting. So the crowd is much more casual and their struggles are much more visible.

:splat: NC Russia
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27 Aug 2019 19:16 #96592 by self biased
Replied by self biased on topic Number of VtES players

elotar wrote: It's cool that 40k is mentioned - the game where disconnect between potential and execution is even more wild than in VtES.


I feel like that because there's a greater disparity between potential and execution in Warhammer 40k, that the onus should be more on the game designers to ensure a fairer game environment. I used to run a 40k club for five or six years and we had upwards of 30 members. It sucked having to ask people to not come back due to their poor behavior. Luckily I only had to do it a few times.

elotar wrote:

self biased wrote: My point is that in any game, mechanics can only do so much to mitigate someone intentionally playing like a jerk. There's always going to be some playstyle, army list, or deck that's going to be viewed as abusive of mechanics.


You getting it backwards - game mechanics should be such, that even jerks are forced to play nice to not lose. There are something like in in VtES, where helping crosstable is beneficial to you, for example.


I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I feel like we're taking very different things away from my original statement. I'm not trying to address whether or not the mechanics of the game should enforce 'fairness' of gameplay, though I do in very general terms agree that the burden of fair play in a game should lie on the design side of things. I'm saying that there's a practical limit to what the mechanics can and should do. What happens when game design can't correct this problem?

Players who play like jerks tend to make themselves unwelcome outside of the game. In my experience two things are likely to happen: Either people will put up with said jerk because they will at least be able to play the game, or they won't and will take steps to either bring that player's behavior more in line with the group's expectations. Or, at an extreme, ask that player to leave.

elotar wrote:

self biased wrote: Elotar, I'm curious: as the NC for Russia, do you have any data for V:tes tournaments held in your country? If so, what do the numbers look like?[/i]


In Russia tournament activity mostly not exists anymore. There was a time several years ago when our WoD community was actively organizing various events, including VtES tournaments, there were regular visits of players from other cities and even countries (Belarus,lol), but it quickly dried up - after last years national there are no tournament ideas in the works. So actually this is the reason why I've started to think that in the game, which looks so cool to me, there may be some problems.

Here is a roots of the big difference between my understanding of the game and what many others here think - as in Russia most of the VtES players are not from CCG crowd who decided to play one more card game, but WoD players who are interested in one more way to play in beloved setting. So the crowd is much more casual and their struggles are much more visible.


so, what i'm taking away from your statement is that V:tes players in Russia tend to be World of Darkness fans who want an additional game in that setting. Is that correct? It's much the same thing here. I've done some custom cards for people who are really big fans of the Masquerade LARP.

What are things that you feel you can do to help build and restore the V:tes community in Russia?

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28 Aug 2019 04:43 #96599 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic Number of VtES players

self biased wrote:
What are things that you feel you can do to help build and restore the V:tes community in Russia?[/i]


Redesign the game to make it more friendly to casual players? Lol.

:splat: NC Russia
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