file Number of VtES players

29 Aug 2019 09:04 #96628 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic Number of VtES players

elotar wrote:

Lönkka wrote:

Kilrauko wrote: I can't find 2019 ropecon stats.


55

www.vekn.net/event-calendar/event/9221


And next year it is going to be uge. It is going to be so good. It is going to be really great.


Return to me when you beet 93 from the 2011. ;)


2020 it is going to be around 150.

I'd suggest that instead of crying a river(s) of tears here in the forum, you harvest your energy and use it to get the game properly on its feet in Russia.

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29 Aug 2019 12:35 #96633 by LivesByProxy
Replied by LivesByProxy on topic Number of VtES players

Ashur wrote: Interesting. What is the potential of VTES?


To me, it looks like VTES wanted to be a game where players took actions with their vampires that was reminiscent of role-playing in WoD. Your vampire would get a Leather Jacket, a Hawg, and a Shotgun and be able to use vampire powers like "blur", "acrobatics" or whatever. He or she might even employee some retainers, create a ghoul, make a pact with the local street gangs, and slowly start to build a herd.

And all of that is really cool, but in VTES that's a dozen different actions with 1 minion that are not directly winning you the game. And the game is about winning.

It's like, the actions VTES wanted to be originally based around: employing retainers, recruiting allies and pawns, moving equipment around - all things that simulate vampires doing stuff in the WoD, all vestigial indicators of the original vision of Jyhad - pales in comparison to the efficiency and effectiveness of big bleeds timed precisely successfully connecting with your prey.

VTES has the potential to be a game about vampires doing vampire stuff like gearing up with half-a-dozen different items, spying on each other, blackmailing one another, vampires with vendettas against others, etc. etc. Create a interesting network of layered relationships between the vampires on the board.

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29 Aug 2019 13:07 - 29 Aug 2019 13:10 #96634 by TwoRazorReign

LivesByProxy wrote: And the game is about winning.


I would argue this was not the original intention, per the first Jyhad rulebook: "Your goal is to use your minions to destroy the influence the other Methuselahs hold over their minions." There is no mention of victory points or who is declared the winner in this description, and it may have been on purpose. The idea at the time (1994) was to have a card game where players role play ancient vampires whose only purpose is to mess up everyone’s plans. Thus, being more concerned about gearing up minions and destroying a rival (not even your prey) was just as fair game as trying to accumulate victory points. One game, two players role playing ancient vampires may battle each other cross table just out of spite making the outcome of the game totally random (perhaps to the chagrin of the other 3 ancient vampires), where the next those two make up and everyone plays nice for victory points. Then maybe in a subsequent game the "doing things out of spite" cycle repeats. And so on. This interaction between ancient vampires and how just one of them acting unruly can make everyone's unlife miserable is what the "eternal struggle" is referring to in the source material.

While the objective of the game did change since Jyhad, the game did not change to fit this objective. And I think this currently contributes to a disconnect between trying to play the game competitively and how the game actually functions.
Last edit: 29 Aug 2019 13:10 by TwoRazorReign.

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29 Aug 2019 14:08 - 29 Aug 2019 14:08 #96635 by Ashur
Replied by Ashur on topic Number of VtES players

LivesByProxy wrote:

Ashur wrote: Interesting. What is the potential of VTES?


To me, it looks like VTES wanted to be a game where players took actions with their vampires that was reminiscent of role-playing in WoD. Your vampire would get a Leather Jacket, a Hawg, and a Shotgun and be able to use vampire powers like "blur", "acrobatics" or whatever. He or she might even employee some retainers, create a ghoul, make a pact with the local street gangs, and slowly start to build a herd.

And all of that is really cool, but in VTES that's a dozen different actions with 1 minion that are not directly winning you the game. And the game is about winning.

It's like, the actions VTES wanted to be originally based around: employing retainers, recruiting allies and pawns, moving equipment around - all things that simulate vampires doing stuff in the WoD, all vestigial indicators of the original vision of Jyhad - pales in comparison to the efficiency and effectiveness of big bleeds timed precisely successfully connecting with your prey.

VTES has the potential to be a game about vampires doing vampire stuff like gearing up with half-a-dozen different items, spying on each other, blackmailing one another, vampires with vendettas against others, etc. etc. Create a interesting network of layered relationships between the vampires on the board.


Personally, I totally agree with this, although I think you get closer to it in a limited game (sealed deck or draft) or in a home game/"kitchen sink" environment. The tournament scene is very much different these days. I think VTES can be both, ie attracting different audiences. Thoughts?

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Last edit: 29 Aug 2019 14:08 by Ashur.
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29 Aug 2019 14:17 #96637 by Ashur
Replied by Ashur on topic Number of VtES players

TwoRazorReign wrote: I would argue this was not the original intention, per the first Jyhad rulebook: "Your goal is to use your minions to destroy the influence the other Methuselahs hold over their minions." ...

This is a poetic paraphrase, and keep in mind that influence = pool, so "destroy their influence" is pretty much "destroy their pool". Which of course can be done in various ways. But yes, the victory point system was added later.

TwoRazorReign wrote: And I think this currently contributes to a disconnect between trying to play the game competitively and how the game actually functions.

This is a important conclusion, which I kind of share, and I know for a fact that the current design team is aware of. Its tricky though, balancing the game so that kitchen table players are as pleased as tournament scene players. And making it possible for the former to actually enjoy turning up at a tournament sometimes and still recognize the game and even win some. More feedback on this topic is great for Black Chantry and VEKN officials to take part of, keep it coming!

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29 Aug 2019 18:27 #96638 by TwoRazorReign

Ashur wrote: This is a poetic paraphrase, and keep in mind that influence = pool, so "destroy their influence" is pretty much "destroy their pool". Which of course can be done in various ways. But yes, the victory point system was added later.


Not to belabor the point, but it's less important what was included in the "object of the game" in the early days than what was left out. It appears careful decisions were made to not make accumulation of victory points a sole objective and to incentivize ousting ones prey instead to guide players along. The door was left open for people to fully play their role as methuselahs; one could decimate their non-prey rival, with in-game consequences that would mimic the theme of the source material (one methuselah making another's life miserable for frivolous reasons, all while a third, fourth, and fifth party may benefit). That door is effectively closed with the current object of the game, especially while also using tournament rules.

VTES was an arty and experimental second attempt at a major CCG. I think that legacy has sort of been lost (but maybe for the best).
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