file Number of VtES players

30 Aug 2019 22:19 #96660 by Pyrocuror
Replied by Pyrocuror on topic Number of VtES players

elotar wrote: Actually this is golden, if it's really the case. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any real evidence of such activity from the design team, as most such problems, plaguing the game from the very beginning (dominate, weenies, predator destroying combat ets) was not addressed at all.

I kinda understood your PoV at the beginninng of this thread ( even if I didn't completely agree ) but it seems you have a problem not only with combat but with a lot of other decks in Vtes. You also made remarks at how the EC Day 2 finale was boring ( it was not ) and how Stanislava won another tournament with a virtual sigh I could hear from my seat.

So now I don't really understand, because from what I read and what I guess, you seem not to like the actual game very much. And once again, I don't think the game lost a lot of population because of the things you're talking about. It lost players because it was not printed and supported by a company. No cards, not a lot of communication around the game etc ...
I started playing in tournaments around Gehennah, there were tons of player at this time and a lot played through until HttB. and as far as I can remember there already were weenies, dominate decks, inner circle decks, Midget and Dolphin bleeding in kindred, Theo or Beast backrushing you etc ... You seem to consider those "problems plaguing the game" but I consider this the core of this game. This is why I like VTES. I do admit I'm sometimes tired to play yet against another grinder but those still produce interesting games nonnetheless.

The only critical flaw VTES used to have was imho Dramatic Upheaval and Kindred Restructure and those are long gone issues.
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31 Aug 2019 11:17 - 31 Aug 2019 18:52 #96663 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic Number of VtES players

Ashur wrote: What strategy is currently "abusive"? Many players suggest MMPA is currently too strong, and many also suggest Emerald Legionnaries are problematic, but what else? Please, provide data. Data rocks! And please also link it to "Number of players" discussion, that is the topic here.


At the moment I would say that almost all tournament viable decks are abusive. It's either dominate, MMA, weenie, ally spam, fatty with broken abilities or some combination of the above.

To the number of players it connects directly - as the are no separate environments for casual and tournament players every new one is getting crushed.

Last time at Tuesday I've tried to give our new player one of my decks, but failed - he understands, that his deck is bad, but it's his :)

Guys here are saying, that we should all bring casual decks to non tournament environment, and actually I agree, that the game is more fun this way.

But somehow they don't understand, that if it's really the case, than there are no reason for separate tournament environment to exist ar all.

And about Ben Peal (answer to your other post) - as it can be gained from his irregular appearances he is full of cool ideas (not so cool, as mine, but still), but his (or design team in general) actions are like of an corporate slaves, who do not want to take any risks because they are sitting on some fragile cash caw (and still fail, because nearly all of successful new cards are either parasitic or made already broken archetypes more broken).

This approach is delusional. I've spend several last months to make couple civ v mods (it's also a "dead game" for those not in the know, as civ vi already got several expansions) and the audience of my subscribers already are beating number of all VtES players several times over.

"VtES is not for all" is part of this delusions. Actually VtES, from the point of setting and multiplayer nature, should be much more approachable to the general audience, then usual "bullshit fantasy" CCG. As LbP have said - everybody can get dude equipping with leather jacket, chopper, shotgun and riding to kick ass, or gal mesmerizing opposition with her supernatural charm.

And when the real game from such premise appears to be Tupdogs, beating swarms of undead legionaries, who are bleed by some demon with no name outside of turn e.t.s it looks like an epic fail.

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:
Last edit: 31 Aug 2019 18:52 by elotar.

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31 Aug 2019 15:05 - 31 Aug 2019 15:07 #96666 by Mewcat
Replied by Mewcat on topic Number of VtES players
@ Pyrocuror
Be careful to say that someone doesn't like the game because they have an idea for how it can be better.

@ elotar
I don't think ben is a corporate shill. I don't think vtes is exactly a money machine and the impression I get is he just enjoys the game and wants it to continue. I don't know him well so I could be wrong.

@ Ashur
An abusive strategy is one that promotes a negative play experience by making it unreasonably hard to play the game in a normal way. You will find this rampant at high level play and I argue this is bad.
Last edit: 31 Aug 2019 15:07 by Mewcat.

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31 Aug 2019 18:43 #96671 by redwulfe
Replied by redwulfe on topic Number of VtES players
So I am new here, so I may not know what I am talking about and that is fine. I am a Game store owner in the US and we just started picking up the cards for the first time in as long as I can remember. I played when the game was called Jyhad and we never really moved over to Eternal Struggle and the game died in my area. but I digress.

In every card game there are top teir decks and you should expect ot see those at tournaments. These do on occation keep players away from those events and withthe shear amount of card that are out of print I can see another layer that creates a bar to entry but I would strongly recomend not trying to stop that in the tournament environment but maybe focusingo n other events that are new player freindly.

Access to cards is one of the factors that keeps a player from being able to compete, so maybe taking a look at the top 5 styles of play and creating a reprint set that focuses on those to give the new player access would be a good idea. The new player will still modify but they now have access to the same cards and it evens the playing feild a bit.

Another option is to limit hte card pool in new player freindly tournaments to the card pool that is available to them in the BC packs. I am not saying do this for every tournament but at least host ones that they feel like they have a greater shot at competing. This is the Standrad environment mentality in other card games.

Third to get a more acurate look at player base also track or hold more league play that may envolve the above suggestion.

All in all, I personally am happy to be back to play some VTES and start building a comunnity where we are. I have already sold to 2 other players since geting hte decks in yesterday so we have a small three man group and will hope to grow from there. Though we are small and not in the tournament scene, and most lickly will not be due to lack of card access, we are three more players in the game. And we feel every little step forward helps. :)
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31 Aug 2019 19:34 #96675 by nedleeds
Replied by nedleeds on topic Number of VtES players

redwulfe wrote: So I am new here, so I may not know what I am talking about and that is fine. I am a Game store owner in the US and we just started picking up the cards for the first time in as long as I can remember. I played when the game was called Jyhad and we never really moved over to Eternal Struggle and the game died in my area. but I digress.


Echoing redwulfe. I am new here and haven't read this entire thread so I apologize if I've just repeating an earlier story. Myself and another methuselah hadn't played in 24 some odd years but I stumbled into 6 booster boxes and 3 or so boxes of Jyhad starters. We got the idea to play again as the game was in 1994. He then went and acquired a bunch of sealed Jyhad off eBay before it disappeared or spiked (as it recently has). We then set out to build decks for a play group and are fortunate enough to have gotten 6-8 player interested and who now know how to play.

I also ran a 25th anniversary event at Gencon called Jyhad: Worlds with only the first set legal. It was very fun, the folks who came and played were passionate about the game and taught me a thing or two about what cards actually do now and rules changes.

I'm also a competitive Magic player and have been for 25 years. I play Vintage and Legacy mostly.

As I began to consider 'expanding' our pool of cards I researched the current 'best' decks and was shocked to find the same core cards from 25 years ago that we had learned to sort of be the rock, paper, scissors of our 'Jyhad' format are still being spammed constantly in 2019.

- Govern / Conditioning Stealth (Scissors)
- Majesty / S:CE (Rock)
- Immortal Grapple (Paper)

I was honestly a little depressed. We had only been playing again for a year or so and are already pretty bored with that basic paradigm. So I searched to see if there is a 'Type II', e.g. a modern fixed version of the game and found nothing. The game had committed many of Magics sins in an effort to evolve and was now a massive unwieldy set of infinite sects, clans, card types, strictly bests. Trifles, events, garbage like Giant's Blood still legal amazed me.

All of the above is my opinion based on a year of playing again and then wanting to expand into post Jyhad cards. Our conclusion among the 8 players was it would be a catastrophic waste of money and time. Nothing would really be gained. We decided instead to simply introduce group 2 to our vampire pool to avoid contesting so much and that's it.

From a local roots level I agree with redwulfe, BCP should introduce Friday Night Bloodhunt or something and focus only on pre-cons or constructed deck from a card pool that begins with their new printings and goes forward. This will be the only way to get new blood into the game in my humble opinion. The 25 year old cluster fuck of rules and cards and 22 x Majesty or Stealth Bleed snooze fests won't keep anybody interested.

BCP has been given an excuse to restore some sanity to the game, restart without the broken cards from the 1st set and use all the knowledge and experience of the great players at sites like VEKN to make a balanced interesting in store format. Big events can still play 'Vintage' but you need a fresh start format to grow the game.

Thanks for reading.
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01 Sep 2019 07:21 #96679 by Pyrocuror
Replied by Pyrocuror on topic Number of VtES players

Mewcat wrote: @ Pyrocuror
Be careful to say that someone doesn't like the game because they have an idea for how it can be better.

Be better for who ? And I still don't understand what kind of decks or games he wants.
I can somehow understand wanting to play only in casual environment with sub-optimal or straight bad decks, but why would you want to change the whole game and force actual tournament players to endure this ?

Playing VTES and loathing most top decks ( Stanislava etc .. ) and top strategies ( combat, bleed ) is like playing Street Fighter and hating Ryu, Ken, Sagat and fireballs. My point is if you remove Ryu and fireballs from Street Fighter would it still be Street Fighter ?

So I'm not sure what does Elotar wants. It might be games where vampires can only bleed for one and rushes can only target your prey, but for sure I don't want it and it wouldn't be VTES.
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