map-pin Rules Team Rulings - RTR 11/05/2018

24 May 2018 09:43 #87423 by Lönkka

Ankha wrote:

Lönkka wrote: What a lovely can of worms! :/

Why?

Totally changes how these vamps functioned before (anarch vise).

And not in that intuitive way.

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24 May 2018 12:46 - 24 May 2018 12:55 #87433 by Ankha

Boris The Blade wrote:

Bloodartist wrote: It is however somewhat unintuitive since first we have counter placed on a vampire that overrules the card text (anarch counter says that this vampire is now an anarch instead of what is printed on the vampire), then we have card text overruling said counter (merged vampire is now independent instead of being an anarch).

That should not be a problem, because all cards that make anarch counters should already be stating that the counter burns if the vampire changes sect. In case it is missing on some cards, it might be good to lift that point from individual cards to the core rules, because it is really just saying that sect counters follow the general rules of sects.

Correct. Boris' example illustrate the fact that players tend to forget that the anarch counter goes away when the vampire changes sect. That should no longer be the case.

What Boris quote as unintuitive has been there long before Anarch becomes a sect on its own: if I control an Advanced vampire who is Independent, and merge it with a base vampire who is Camarilla, does it change sect?

The answer is no. Is it unintuitive? I don't think so, since the Advanced version is the most advanced version, so it must supersede the base version.
If the Advanced vampire has changed sect in the meantime, there is no reason why the base version would suddenly change the sect (THAT would be unintuitive).

Lönkka wrote:

Ankha wrote:

Lönkka wrote: What a lovely can of worms! :/

Why?

Totally changes how these vamps functioned before (anarch vise).

And not in that intuitive way.

Only if the advanced (or merged) vampire is Independent.
Otherwise, it works exactly the same way as before: a base Anarch vampire who merges into a Sabbat used to lose its Anarch status before, because changing sect causes the anarch to go.
And an advanced vampire who had become Anarch would have kept his anarch status when merging with a base version, unless the MERGED text states otherwise (another sect)

If you get used to the idea that Anarch is a sect, it's not unintuitive (replace "Anarch" by "Camarilla" for instance).

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Last edit: 24 May 2018 12:55 by Ankha.

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24 May 2018 14:45 #87441 by Sambomb
advanced / merged independent vampires that is anarch should be able to keep the anarch sect when merging to follow "Effects that would affect (or ignore) Independent vampires now affect (or ignore) Independent and Anarch vampires:"

Maybe a keyword to avoid "Independent or Anarch" can help, maybe sectless.
Sectless vampires inherit the independent or Anarch sect when needed.

Banner of Neutrality
Requires an Sectless vampire. Only usable when a Camarilla or Sabbat vampire is bleeding you.
Reduce the bleed amount by 1.

Community Justice
+1 stealth action. Requires an Sectless vampire.
(D) Burn a vampire who has diablerized a vampire of the same clan as this acting vampire since your last turn.

Exclusion Principle
Successful referendum means each Methuselah gains 1 pool for each ready Sectless vampire he or she controls.

Free States Rant
Requires an Sectless vampire.
Allocate X points among one or more ready vampires, where X is half this acting vampire's capacity rounded up. No 4 or more points can be allocated to each vampire. Successful referendum means each vampire burns 1 blood for each point assigned. In this referendum, non-priscus titles are worth 1 less vote each, priscus title is worth 1 less ballot, and burning the Edge is worth 1 additional vote.

Haqim's Law: Judgment
Contract. Trifle.
Lock a ready Sectless Assamite you control to put this card on a younger vampire. Every Independent or Anarch Assamite is considered chosen for this contract. Any Sectless Assamite can enter combat with the attached vampire as a +1 stealth (D) action.

Reckless Agitation
Requires an Sectless vampire with capacity 5 or more.
Allocate 6 points among two or more other Methuselahs. Successful referendum means each Methuselah burns 1 pool for each point assigned.

Count Germaine
Independent. Red List: Germaine gets +2 bleed against a Methuselah who controls a titled non-Sectless vampire.

Hillanvale
Once each action, Hillanvale can burn 1 blood and discard one card requiring Melpominee [mel] to get +1 bleed. She gets -1 intercept against non-Sectless vampires.

Jan Pieterzoon ADV
Independent: Jan can burn 3 blood to cancel a Gehenna card as it is played.
[MERGED] While Jan is Sectless and there are any Gehenna cards in play, he gets +3 votes.

Matthew Romans
Sabbat: During your unlock phase, Matthew can burn 1 blood to lock a younger non-Sectless vampire controlled by your prey.

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24 May 2018 16:25 #87444 by ReverendRevolver
I'm concerned that some of this would be taking a mad stab at design Intent.
Like, Jan is presumably just fine with the cam, so is independent. Independent is unaffiliated with anarch, sabbat, cam, laibon, so independent is simply independent. Anarch has things that go on a vamp as card or counter. All burn when sect changes. Anarch has cards that make you anarch with no cards or counters. Those are overridden if sect changes. Its frustrating to play around, but it's not changed much.

Now, Anarch and laibon have fewer minions printed with their sect as default, so maybe we can adjust that, but that's a farther off sort of thing.

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24 May 2018 19:00 #87453 by jamesatzephyr

Sambomb wrote: Maybe a keyword to avoid "Independent or Anarch" can help, maybe sectless.
Sectless vampires inherit the independent or Anarch sect when needed.


Unlikely to work with that word. The key cited motivation for the change is that Paradox WoD treats Anarch as a sect. Labelling it not a sect (sectless i.e. without a sect) in V:TES would run in the exact opposite direction to that.

www.vekn.net/2-uncategorised/385-vampire-elder-kindred-network-newsletter-november-2017

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25 May 2018 14:33 #87512 by Sambomb

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Sambomb wrote: Maybe a keyword to avoid "Independent or Anarch" can help, maybe sectless.
Sectless vampires inherit the independent or Anarch sect when needed.


Unlikely to work with that word. The key cited motivation for the change is that Paradox WoD treats Anarch as a sect. Labelling it not a sect (sectless i.e. without a sect) in V:TES would run in the exact opposite direction to that.

www.vekn.net/2-uncategorised/385-vampire-elder-kindred-network-newsletter-november-2017


They will still be a sect, its just a keyword to group both independent and anarch, this can be switched to another keyword

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