file off-turn Nocturn

07 Oct 2020 15:03 #100871 by Kilrauko
Replied by Kilrauko on topic off-turn Nocturn

Timo wrote:

Kilrauko wrote: .. .


Actually, I think that a malkavian embrace being created in someone else turn is not forced to hunt.

It is exactly the same with any empty malkavian.

They can take actions. And if they decide to use this option, the only one they can perform is hunting.

The "must hunt" in embrace card text makes it a mandatory action on the same level as a vampire being empty and unlocked "must hunt" (we could look into the case with an out of turn spirit marionnette on a malkavian under madness network : the malk "must bleed" but is allowed to "not act" instead).


Ah but thanks to embrace's text and how mandatory hunt is defined it is not. The Rulebook says, and I quote;

http://www.vekn.net/rulebook/6-minion-phase wrote: Most of the activity in the game occurs in the minion phases. During your minion phase, you may have your minions take actions. Only ready unlocked minions can take actions, and taking an action locks the acting minion. Other Methuselah's ready unlocked minions may attempt to block your action, and blocking locks the blocking minion (see Resolve Any Block Attempts, sec. 6.2.2).
...
Some actions are mandatory. For example, a ready vampire with no blood must hunt. During your minion phase, none of your minions can take any non-mandatory actions if any of your ready unlocked minions have mandatory actions yet to perform. If you have two or more minions with mandatory actions, they may be done in the order you choose. A minion with a mandatory action to perform cannot perform any other action. If a single minion has two or more different mandatory actions, then he is "stuck" and cannot take any action (this doesn't prevent your other minions from taking non-mandatory actions, however).


This is what I've always assumed LSJ in https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/5uz0i-W7BjM/m/xMfwRHMhvW4J is referring;

LSJ in 2006 wrote: ... > > 2. If the Madness Network is out and I have an untapped ready malk does
> > he a)have to hunt? b) able to take the non mandatory actions while
> > empty OOT?
>
> Malkavian's taking actions OOT due to Madness Network is not mandatory.
> BUT, If you
> decide to act OOT with a Malkavian that has no blood, then you have to
> hunt, that is
> mandatory.

Correct.

...


Empty malkavian is not forced to hunt via madness network as empty hunts are mandatory only during controllers minion phase (per rules).

However if via some means that hunt is mandatory outside their controller's minion phase, like with The Embrace's card text and 1.4

1.4 wrote: 1.4. The Golden Rule for Cards

Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence.

the embrace malkavian has to hunt the turn it is recruited. If the "must hunt" part of the card text was not there, it would act like any other ready untapped malkavian with 0 blood on other methuselah's turn with madness network. Lutz at 0 blood and fresh embrace at 0 have different conditions oot, one has nothing forcing them and another has. Therefore claiming just because 0 blood malkavians can choose, the embrace malkavian at 0 can choose makes it false equivalence.

I also might have understood this interaction wrong for years? Mods feel free to split this to it's own topic if needed as I haven't been able to find exact LSJ ruling on OOT malkavian embraces and madness network.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

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07 Oct 2020 15:25 - 07 Oct 2020 15:42 #100872 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic off-turn Nocturn

Kilrauko wrote: Empty malkavian is not forced to hunt via madness network as empty hunts are mandatory only during controllers minion phase (per rules).

However if via some means that hunt is mandatory outside their controller's minion phase, like with The Embrace's card text and 1.4

1.4 wrote: 1.4. The Golden Rule for Cards

Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence.

The important thing to know is "which part of the rule does the card contradict". The scope must be as little as possible.

Kilrauko wrote: the embrace malkavian has to hunt the turn it is recruited. If the "must hunt" part of the card text was not there, it would act like any other ready untapped malkavian with 0 blood on other methuselah's turn with madness network. Lutz at 0 blood and fresh embrace at 0 have different conditions oot, one has nothing forcing them and another has. Therefore claiming just because 0 blood malkavians can choose, the embrace malkavian at 0 can choose makes it false equivalence.

The "must" part indicates that the Embrace has a mandatory action to perform. Even if one gives blood to the Embrace (e.g., with Heidelberg), the Embrace must hunt. If one manages to unlock the Embrace after they have hunted, they can do something else (since the mandatory action has been performed).
An empty vampire has also a mandatory action to perform, on the exact same level of priority. The only difference is the condition that imposes the mandatory action.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 07 Oct 2020 15:42 by Ankha.

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07 Oct 2020 15:29 - 07 Oct 2020 15:41 #100873 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic off-turn Nocturn

Palamedes wrote: To shorten the story, if there is no such sentence in the rules, it should be added:

In 6. Minion Phase:
During your minion phase, you may have your minions take actions. Your minions can take actions only in your minion phase.


The sentence in red is redundant. Anything that is not allowed by the rules is forbidden by default.

You cannot perform actions during the discard phase for instance, because the rulebook doesn't explictely allow minions to perform actions during discard phases.
Similarily, nothing in the rules explicitely allows your minions to act outside your own minion phase.

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Last edit: 07 Oct 2020 15:41 by Ankha. Reason: typo

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07 Oct 2020 15:39 - 07 Oct 2020 15:41 #100874 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic off-turn Nocturn

kschaefer wrote:

Ankha wrote: 1/ Nocturn at superior says: "As above, and this vampire {can} perform this action again this turn, with the cost increased by 1 blood.". Let's say the vampire who recruited the Nocturn was using Enkil Cog and untaps, does that mean he can do another Nocturn without the use of the Enkil Cog? The clause overrides the NRA, not the fact that the vampire cannot normally act during other Methuselahs' minion phase.

Enkil Cog enables the vampire to act out of turn and card text on Nocturn allows it to do so again. Quite simply card text: "this vampire {can} perform this action again this turn" (highlight mine).

As I stated in www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/78800-off-turn-nocturn?start=24#100872 , the question is: "what part of the rules does the cardtext override"?
The ruling says, in that case: it overrides the NRA, nothing else.

kschaefer wrote:

Ankha wrote: 2/ Theo Bell says: "Theo can enter combat with a minion as a (D) action." However, he cannot do this outside your minion phase by default.

Per the rulebook he cannot act out of turn and nothing on his card text suggests otherwise. This seems like a red herring comment to prop up the weak argument supporting the misruling about Nocturn.

No, it is here to illustrate that only relevant parts of the rules are being overridden.
Nothing in the rules explicitely allows minions to enter combat as a (D) action the way Theo Bell does. However, Theo Bell can because his cardtext allows him to do so. But it doesn't override anything else: Theo Bell cannot perform that action during other player's turn by default, nor during the discard phase etc.

kschaefer wrote:

Ankha wrote: Nocturn lack the "in/during any Methuselah's minion phase" clause.

But Nocturn does have the card text: "the turn it is recruited" and "this turn." That should be whatever turn this turn is whether that's your turn or out-of-turn. That's the overriding text that supersedes the standard rulebook rule about when minion can act.

If you want to have Nocturn's only be able to act on their turn or prevent additional recruit actions, then you're going to need to be wordier and more specific about what the current turn is.

Or all we need is a clarification for that situation. Nocturn's cardtext is already pretty long, the "can act this turn" can be understood differently, that's why there is a clarification.

Prince of Paris, France
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Last edit: 07 Oct 2020 15:41 by Ankha.
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08 Oct 2020 19:28 - 09 Oct 2020 04:15 #100888 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic off-turn Nocturn
My 2 cents

From what i read and understand it seems to me that it might be a good idea to reconsider the ruling of the text "X can act the turn it is recruited." from not just being a rewording/replacement of the previous text "Move X to the ready region when recruited." to avoid needing to errata the card text. It´s clear by the current ruling that the intention was to clarify that the recruited ally is not restricted by the rule preventing it from acting the turn it is recruited but the text "X can act the turn it is recruited." isn't clearly indicating that it is limited to when done in ones own minion phase and furthermore such a change would only affect two cards currently (i think) and wouldn't be a game breaking change.

On the topic of minions taking actions out of turn, it is not allowed by the fact that it isn´t mentioned as allowed in the rules and can only be overruled by card text as per the rules, which in the below cases when just going by the text of the cards mean they can act.
A turn is a turn regardless whos turn it is in the sense of text and meaning. Something saying you are allowed to do something in a "turn" without specifically limiting its meaning to ones own minion phase means it applies to any/anyone´s turn. There are a lot of cards with the text "each turn", where some are played in ones own turn, some during other players turn and some in either turn, without ever mentioning whos turn it has to be and are sometimes limited in function and when they are usable by further text. The lack of "in/during any Methuselah's minion phase" doesn´t apply by default in the written language and would only be taken as that because of intent and/or ruling which creates unclarity.
Enkil Cog and Madness Network cards text and the likes superseding the rule of acting out of turn are the sole enabler for cards which say they can be used in the current turn, without being limited to have to be in the controllers own minion phase, should be able to be used in any/anyone´s turn if just considering text and not rulings..


1) Vampire using Enkil Cog to recruit Nocturn out of turn

Enkil Cog allows the vampires to take an (one) action out of turn which in this case is the recruitment of Nocturn. Nocturn can then act because the card text says so, if disregarding the current ruling, being the part that is superseding the rule of acting out of turn by stating it can act this turn which by text doesn´t check whos turn it is. If Nocturn was recruited at superior the vampire can perform the same action again this turn, again because the card text says so, superseding the rule of acting out of turn, with an additional cost to the same action.


2) Vampire using Enkil Cog to recruit Nocturn out of turn while its prey has Gran Madre di Dio, Italy in play

Enkil Cog allows the vampires to take an (one) action out of turn which in this case is the recruitment of Nocturn. As Gran Madre di Dio, Italy is in play Nocturn enters play locked and cannot act this turn. The card text of Nocturn and Gran Madre di Dio, Italy creates a contradiction where one say it can act this turn and the other puts the minion in a state "locked" where by rules it can´t act if not stated in the card text that it can act while locked.

The rules state that in the minion phase "Only ready unlocked minions can take actions".
The rules in my opinion should be the tie breaker in any case where two or more cards have contradicting rules superseding effects and therefore here resulting in that Nocturn can´t act this turn.


3) Vampire (ex Theo Bell) using Enkil Cog to perform a Govern the Unaligned bleed out of turn lacking the text "can/must act this turn" and followed by the use of Helicopter

Enkil Cog allows the vampires to take an (one) action out of turn which in this case is a Govern the Unaligned bleed. After successful action Helicopter is locked to unlock the vampire. At this point there is nothing that would allow Theo Bell to use his special or perform another action even though he is unlocked as there isn´t any card or effect that allows him to act out of turn and/or in the current turn again.


4) Malkavian Vampire using Madness Network to play The Embrace out of turn or having a Malkavian without blood during another players turn

Madness Network allows the vampires to take the action out of turn which in this case is The Embrace. The Embrace vampire must hunt this turn because the card text says so and is therefore allowed to in this turn.

The Malkavian vampire without blood is able to act because Madness Network and must do so because the rules say so forcing it to Hunt.

The rules say "a ready vampire with no blood must hunt" and doesn´t say it has to only happen in your own minion phase turn. By rules text it is then only limited to happen by when the vampire is allowed to act, forcing the taking of the action Hunt when ever possible to act.


Conclusion - I think that anything that allows us to play the game controlled by the text in the rules and the cards decreasing the need to lean on rulings because the text doesn´t clearly convey the workings of the effects/cards is the right path for the game to reduce the complexity and threshold of the game as long as the game doesn´t get broken in the process. I´m not a VTES expert by any means but with my current understanding of the described situations above nothing is game breaking and would only be opening up the possibility of reverting some rulings which aren't very intuitive in relation to the texts and/or intentions of the card/effects design which in my opinion is secondary to having a "to the point" game which works with as little rulings as possible.


Card texts:

Name: Enkil Cog
[KoT:R, Anthology:1, 25th:1]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Unique. Requires a vampire with capacity 10 or more. Only usable after resolution of a successful bleed against your prey.
Put this card on this vampire. This vampire gets +1 bleed. During any Methuselah's minion phase, this vampire can lock this card to take an action.
Artist: Marian Churchland; Ginés Quiñonero; Marian Churchland

Name: Nocturn
[SoC:C, HttB:PKia2]
Cardtype: Ally
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Obtenebration
Demon with 1 life. 1 strength, 1 bleed.
[obt] {Nocturn can act the turn it is recruited.}. If this is this vampire's first successful recruit action this turn, {unlock him or her}. Nocturn can play non-ally cards {requiring} basic Obtenebration [obt] as a vampire. Burn Nocturn during your unlock phase.
[OBT] As above, and this vampire {can} perform this action again this turn, with the cost increased by 1 blood.
Artist: Leif Jones

Name: Gran Madre di Dio, Italy
[Promo-20061126]
Cardtype: Equipment
In play, this is a unique location and does not count as equipment.
When your predator or prey puts a minion in play in any phase except the unlock phase, that minion is locked. If that minion is a younger vampire, he or she burns 1 blood.
Artist: Ginés Quiñonero

Name: Govern the Unaligned
[Jyhad:C, VTES:C, SW:PL2/PV, FN:PG2, CE:C/PV4, Anarchs:PAG, KMW:PAl3, Third:PTr5, HttB:PKia6/PSal4, SP:PoS6, 25th:7, FB:PTr6/PV6]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Dominate
[dom] (D) Bleed with +2 bleed.
[DOM] +1 stealth action. Add 3 blood to a younger vampire in your uncontrolled region.
Artist: Mark Poole; Oliver Meinerding

Name: Helicopter
[Third:U/PTr, KoT:U]
Cardtype: Equipment
Cost: 3 pool
Vehicle.
When a minion equips with the Helicopter, lock it. After resolving a successful action, this minion may lock the Helicopter to unlock. A minion may have only one vehicle.
Artist: Eric Lofgren

Name: Madness Network
[Jyhad:R, VTES:R, CE:R, KoT:R]
Cardtype: Master
Clan: Malkavian
Unique master.
Put this card in play. Unlocked Malkavians can take actions in any Methuselah's minion phase (follow normal sequencing rules). Any minion can burn this card as an action that any unlocked Malkavian (in addition to the normally eligible blockers) can attempt to block.
Artist: Leif Jones; Anson Maddocks

Name: The Embrace
[Jyhad:R2, VTES:R, CE:R2, KoT:R, SP:LB9]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 2 blood
+1 stealth action. Requires a non-sterile vampire.
Put this card in play. It becomes a 1-capacity non-unique vampire of the same clan and sect as the acting vampire, and must hunt this turn.
Artist: Pete Venters; Mark Nelson
Last edit: 09 Oct 2020 04:15 by inm8. Reason: Theo can’t use Freak Drive to unlock, changed it to say he uses Helicopter instead
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09 Oct 2020 06:14 #100894 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic off-turn Nocturn

inm8 wrote: 2) Vampire using Enkil Cog to recruit Nocturn out of turn while its prey has Gran Madre di Dio, Italy in playAs Gran Madre di Dio, Italy is in play Nocturn enters play locked and cannot act this turn. The card text of Nocturn and Gran Madre di Dio, Italy creates a contradiction where one say it can act this turn and the other puts the minion in a state "locked" where by rules it can´t act if not stated in the card text that it can act while locked.

It's not contradictory as in "X can perform actions" vs "X cannot perform actions". Locked vampires can perform actions provided the card allows to do so (e.g., Force of Will). If the Nocturn sentence is considered "absolute" (as in: it overrides any existing rules about performing actions), then it should override the necessity to be unlocked.

inm8 wrote: The rules state that in the minion phase "Only ready unlocked minions can take actions".
The rules in my opinion should be the tie breaker in any case where two or more cards have contradicting rules superseding effects and therefore here resulting in that Nocturn can´t act this turn.

It doesn't work like this. The general rule is (by priority order): CARD "cannot" effects > CARD "can" effects > RULES "cannot effect"

For instance, the rules forbid a vampire from bleeding more than once in a turn. However, Taking the Skin: Minion overrides this restriction. But if the vampire has a Pentex Subversion attached, they cannot perform the bleed action at all.

inm8 wrote: I´m not a VTES expert by any means but with my current understanding of the described situations above nothing is game breaking and would only be opening up the possibility of reverting some rulings which aren't very intuitive in relation to the texts and/or intentions of the card/effects design which in my opinion is secondary to having a "to the point" game which works with as little rulings as possible.

It would create need for other rulings such as "what happens if the Nocturn is locked"?
One way or the other, you'll have to define the scope of what rules are overridden by the Nocturn's sentence.

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