file off-turn Nocturn

09 Oct 2020 07:56 #100895 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic off-turn Nocturn

Ankha wrote: For instance, the rules forbid a vampire from bleeding more than once in a turn. However, Taking the Skin: Minion overrides this restriction. But if the vampire has a Pentex Subversion attached, they cannot perform the bleed action at all.


Nitpicking : Old text Pentex Subversion

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09 Oct 2020 15:23 #100902 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic off-turn Nocturn

Ankha wrote:

inm8 wrote: 2) Vampire using Enkil Cog to recruit Nocturn out of turn while its prey has Gran Madre di Dio, Italy in playAs Gran Madre di Dio, Italy is in play Nocturn enters play locked and cannot act this turn. The card text of Nocturn and Gran Madre di Dio, Italy creates a contradiction where one say it can act this turn and the other puts the minion in a state "locked" where by rules it can´t act if not stated in the card text that it can act while locked.


It's not contradictory as in "X can perform actions" vs "X cannot perform actions". Locked vampires can perform actions provided the card allows to do so (e.g., Force of Will). If the Nocturn sentence is considered "absolute" (as in: it overrides any existing rules about performing actions), then it should override the necessity to be unlocked.


When the rules say "Only ready unlocked minions can take actions" and "the ally is placed in your ready region, but it cannot act this turn" it is setting up the restrictions and requirements that apply if not overruled explicitly by card text. The text of Nocturn says "{Nocturn can act the turn it is recruited.}." referencing to the recruitment of it and the ability to act the current turn, saying nothing about being able to overrule the requirement of needing to be unlocked to act. Thereby if Nocturn enters play locked it cannot act as it doesn't comply with the explicit requirement of being unlocked to do so if not stated explicitly in card text which it doesn´t.

In regards to the example of Force of Will the card text explicitly says "Only usable by a locked vampire." referencing to the the fact that the vampire has to be locked and that the action is usable/allowed which is the part that overrules the requirement of being unlocked.

Name: Force of Will
[DS:C2, FN:PR2, Anarchs:PAG/PG2, KMW:PG, Third:C]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Fortitude
Only usable by a locked vampire.
[for] (D) Bleed with +1 bleed. After resolution, this vampire takes 2 unpreventable aggravated damage even if the action is blocked.
[FOR] As above, but with +2 bleed, and the acting vampire takes only 1 unpreventable aggravated damage.
Artist: Ron Spencer

Ankha wrote:

inm8 wrote: The rules state that in the minion phase "Only ready unlocked minions can take actions".
The rules in my opinion should be the tie breaker in any case where two or more cards have contradicting rules superseding effects and therefore here resulting in that Nocturn can´t act this turn.


It doesn't work like this. The general rule is (by priority order): CARD "cannot" effects > CARD "can" effects > RULES "cannot effect"

For instance, the rules forbid a vampire from bleeding more than once in a turn. However, Taking the Skin: Minion overrides this restriction. But if the vampire has a Pentex Subversion attached, they cannot perform the bleed action at all.


My mistake there wasn´t a contradiction of card texts in this case and it is actually the fact that the Nocturn card text doesn´t explicitly says that it can act while locked which prevents it from being able to do so per the rules. Agree with the priority of rule and understand that if we had the old wording of Pentex Subversion a vampire wouldn´t be allowed to act because of it as the "cannot take actions" from the card text has higher priority. If the vampire would be locked instead (ie. Enkil Cog + Deep Song by another vampire after acquiring Taking the Skin: Minion) it wouldn´t be allowed to bleed or take any other action without anything explicitly saying that it is allowed by card text to do so while locked.

Ankha wrote:

inm8 wrote: I´m not a VTES expert by any means but with my current understanding of the described situations above nothing is game breaking and would only be opening up the possibility of reverting some rulings which aren't very intuitive in relation to the texts and/or intentions of the card/effects design which in my opinion is secondary to having a "to the point" game which works with as little rulings as possible.

It would create need for other rulings such as "what happens if the Nocturn is locked"?
One way or the other, you'll have to define the scope of what rules are overridden by the Nocturn's sentence.


The text of Nocturn doesn´t say it overrules all rules and is confined by what it is explicitly stating. If there aren´t other rules or other cards text adding more requirements and/or restrictions it is to be handled as written.

In the case of acting out of turn which is overruled by cards like Enkil Cog and there then are cards that grant the continued action taking by card texts that explicitly say it is allowed to "act this turn" is because there is nothing that says that you can only act in your own minion phase. If this is not to be allowed and to be clear it should then be added to the rules that cards that grant action taking in this/current turn can only be used in ones own minion phase and only cards like Enkil Cog would be able to overrule the acting out of turn. This should only be done if it breaks the game which at the moment i don´t see it doing.

In the case of acting in general or allowed by card text it is always restricted to minions that are unlocked if not otherwise explicitly stated in card text that they are allowed to while locked. Even If being in ones own minion phase having Theo Bell ready but locked he cannot use his special because he isn´t allowed to act because he is locked and nothing in his special explicitly states that he can do so while locked and therefore the rule applies that states that he has to be unlocked to take an action. The same should then apply to Nocturn if recruited while its prey has Gran Madre di Dio, Italy in play.
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09 Oct 2020 15:59 - 09 Oct 2020 16:05 #100903 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic off-turn Nocturn

inm8 wrote: In the case of acting out of turn which is overruled by cards like Enkil Cog and there then are cards that grant the continued action taking by card texts that explicitly say it is allowed to "act this turn" is because there is nothing that says that you can only act in your own minion phase.

By construction, the rulebook describes what the player can do, not what the player cannot do (unless it needs to put restrictions on something else it allows to do, for instance "minions can bleed" but "minions cannot bleed twice"), so there is no reason to write down "You cannot perform actions during other Methuselah's turns": if nothing allows it in the rulebook, it is forbidden, by default.

The rulebook says "During your minion phase, you may have your minions take actions." Since there is nothing in the rulebook that allows to perform actions outside one's minion phase, it means that your minions can only take actions during your minion phase.

inm8 wrote: If this is not to be allowed and to be clear it should then be added to the rules that cards that grant action taking in this/current turn can only be used in ones own minion phase

You're making a difference between: "This minion can perform actions." and "This minion can perform actions this turn".
That's fine, but we have to agree on the scope covered by "this turn". What restriction does this remove?

The ruling says: it removes the restriction for an ally of not being to take actions the turn it is recruited.
Not: as above, AND it also removes the restriction for minions to act only during your turn

inm8 wrote: and only cards like Enkil Cog would be able to overrule the acting out of turn.

This is the case, because it explicitely states "during other Methuselah's minion phase".

To summarize:
There are multiple rules preventing an ally from acting during a turn:
1/ it's not your minion phase
2/ the ally is locked
3/ the ally has been recruited this turn

The sentence "Nocturn can act the turn it is recruited" only removes restriction 3/.

I agree it's opened to discussion (6 pages already), but that's the official clarification.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 09 Oct 2020 16:05 by Ankha.

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09 Oct 2020 18:17 #100904 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic off-turn Nocturn

Ankha wrote: By construction, the rulebook describes what the player can do, not what the player cannot do (unless it needs to put restrictions on something else it allows to do, for instance "minions can bleed" but "minions cannot bleed twice"), so there is no reason to write down "You cannot perform actions during other Methuselah's turns": if nothing allows it in the rulebook, it is forbidden, by default.


"if nothing allows it in the rulebook, it is forbidden, by default" This is clear and i don´t question this.

Ankha wrote: The rulebook says "During your minion phase, you may have your minions take actions." Since there is nothing in the rulebook that allows to perform actions outside one's minion phase, it means that your minions can only take actions during your minion phase.


Again this is clear and i don´t question this.

Ankha wrote: You're making a difference between: "This minion can perform actions." and "This minion can perform actions this turn".
That's fine, but we have to agree on the scope covered by "this turn". What restriction does this remove?

The ruling says: it removes the restriction for an ally of not being to take actions the turn it is recruited.
Not: as above, AND it also removes the restriction for minions to act only during your turn


I do make a difference between the two because language wise there is one. This is what i have tried to convey. The ruling has sided with intention of design an not by the written word which is bound to happen and should if it is considered game breaking but it is also what makes it unclear for people that aren´t experts on the rulings which aren´t always the easiest to find.
The best would obviously be that the card texts conveyed exactly what it intended but it isn´t always the case. The scope that I'm suggesting is what i have tired to described that "this turn" on its own doesn't actually allow you to act out of turn but that it allows the continued acting in anyone's turn which would have had to be initiated by cards of the like of Enkil Cog for it to be able to happen out of turn...this is not going to be the most common of things and thus considered at the moment as probably not game breaking.

Ankha wrote:
To summarize:
There are multiple rules preventing an ally from acting during a turn:
1/ it's not your minion phase
2/ the ally is locked
3/ the ally has been recruited this turn

The sentence "Nocturn can act the turn it is recruited" only removes restriction 3/.

I agree it's opened to discussion (6 pages already), but that's the official clarification.


The current official stand and rulings are clear. As i wrote above this is where i mean that the Nocturn text doesn´t by text alone only overrule nr 3 but also nr 1 as long as initiated by the likes of Enkil Cog.

At the end of the day it is your prerogative and burden as the expert and appointed rules manager to decide and I'm just providing my way of seeing it for you to consider...as many considerations and view points as possible in a constructive way hopefully give you the means to take the best decision for this game that we all love.
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11 Oct 2020 01:45 - 11 Oct 2020 01:46 #100906 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic off-turn Nocturn

Ankha wrote: By construction, the rulebook describes what the player can do, not what the player cannot do (unless it needs to put restrictions on something else it allows to do, for instance "minions can bleed" but "minions cannot bleed twice"), so there is no reason to write down "You cannot perform actions during other Methuselah's turns": if nothing allows it in the rulebook, it is forbidden, by default.


Indeed. However there is this little thing ahead of all other rules:

1.4. The Golden Rule for Cards
Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence.


It is not specified what rules cards can or cannot break. Therefore it can be assumed that cardtext can overrule all rules.

Saying that the aforementioned action rules could not be overruled by cardtext is paradoxical and confusing. At least I have no clue what rules can or cannot be broken by cardtext, if its not all of them.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 11 Oct 2020 01:46 by Bloodartist.
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11 Oct 2020 08:46 #100908 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic off-turn Nocturn

Bloodartist wrote:

Ankha wrote: Indeed. However there is this little thing ahead of all other rules:

1.4. The Golden Rule for Cards
Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence.


It is not specified what rules cards can or cannot break. Therefore it can be assumed that cardtext can overrule all rules.



SO much this!


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