file Fatima leads the revolt

30 Apr 2012 05:06 #28983 by Azel
Replied by Azel on topic Re: Fatima leads the revolt
Look, I too have a passion for the Assamites, being a long time Path of Blood forum member. And I've seen Jeff Kuta really play them artfully. But the issue is you are putting a lot of stress on Fatima where she already has a lot of work to do. The fastest way I've seen rush superstar decks fail is trying to overuse rush as both forward pressure and backwards defense. Related tangent, I really hate your smaller vampire support -- it doesn't relieve enough pressure from Fatima.

The advantage to Anarch Revolt is that, as mentioned above, doesn't encourage cross-table meddling as much as Smiling Jack et al, and that it gives a nice juicy target for focus fire. But your construction leaves your defenses so exposed that you are going to have trouble taking advantage of that juicy target.

Why do I not recommend so many contracts? Because you don't support it enough. There's not enough multiact, so you can't optimize the Clandestine Contract advantage of double rushing (in those case you don't have Psyche in hand). You don't have a Mylan, or CrimethINC (take a second look at THA version btw), or just more Freaks for multi-act support.

And I don't find self rescue a waste against you -- redunking with an action wastes your time. Unless you sport a Rutors, multiact is going to be your power projection limiter. And until you have an AR, Fame, Tension, or Dragonbound vice, I'm just not going to care about you. I'm either going to be crippled and furiously shoring up to deny you VPs or spamming tactics to delay you. Unless I'm cross-table, because then you're likely to cripple either my predator or prey, respectively. You're a cross-table boon! And even when your vice is up, the easiest way to deal with your combo (except for AR) is diablerie... and you have no votes. So, again, where's your Black Throne?

I want a real defense module. I want more bleed power. I want more actions to actually accomplish what you want to do here. I want your supporting crypt to, y'know, support you. I want more in the areas that keeps bringing these decks down.

But I like your Anarch Revolt idea. Something nasty could be wheedled out of this. You're playing anarch and your support crypt could be really interesting. Ventrue weenies as bleed, bounce and Ventrue Headquarters support -- VHQ + BT you can sport 5 votes against oh-so-clever diablerie. Tremere support gets you Magic of the Smith, Biothaum Exp, CrimethInc, bounce or bleed reduction support, etc. AUS vamp support creates an eww nasty firewall, and an AUS master can give Fatima a Pulse for bleeds. Heck, even all Assamite support with Loss, Nest of Eagles, Banner of Neutrality, and Foul Bloods are more helpful -- and all they'd have to do most of the time is sit there untapped.

We got that you like dunking with Fatima (it is fun, isn't it?). And you have a framework with her that has some history that it should work. Now take that part of the deck, set it aside, and work without her on how to keep this thing alive on the table long enough to accomplish what you want.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Pendargon

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30 Apr 2012 08:51 - 30 Apr 2012 08:53 #29015 by Pendargon
I Know you Azel :-D

I am playing almost exclusively assamites in the last 2 years, and path of blood has been a real inspiration for me. Sad to see it so quiet.

Truth be told, i am also not happy with my support crew, but here is a thing : I have been playing for the long time Thetmes rush deck with group 2 dom weenie support (Royce, ohanna, Samson, all the cool kids). They deflect, graverob and bleed with conditionings ,, cloaked and veiled by thetmes who first clears the path. I even won a 14 player tournament with it. So it is well known, and kind of maligned here, and i am trying to make something fresher.

Mylan is intentionally not in. 'Round here, he either dies to block first time he tries his thing, or is stolen one way or the other.

I know what chrimethinc does, in fact i use it copiously in another all assamite anarch rush deck with steely tenacities, and Parnassus as the main star (him being sorceror can play both tha and qui version of it).

In fact, i think you have given me a great idea. Small cap tremere support could be really good here. They could play crimethincs with Fatima, and also they could play magic of the smith for some cool equipment, like heart of cheating (to help my flow) and also maybe deflect...

But it all takes up deckspace, alas. I feel i cannot cut down on rushes, multiact and combat. and i would like to keep it at neat 80 cards. And somehow these days it seems all the good inclusions are mastercards, i swear, sometimes i feel like 30 mster slots is not enough for all the cool green cards i want to put next to my cool red cards :evil:

I will give this matter some thought

:QUI: :POT: :OBE: :CEL: :OBF: :tore: :assa:
Last edit: 30 Apr 2012 08:53 by Pendargon.

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30 Apr 2012 09:59 #29025 by johannes
From what I gather the fundamental problem here is: you are not trying to do a Fatima deck. You are trying to do exactly THIS Fatima deck and you expect by some minor tweaks an will become very strong by miracle. That might be overstating it some, but I think it is really the core issue.

When you want to use Fatima effectively go back to the drawing board and analyze what makes Fatima good. She is an 8-cap from a sucky clan that can´t even diablerize with no bounce discipline. The ONLY thing that makes her worthwile is her special. So since that is the only thing she got going for her maybe you should think about getting more mileage out of it. Here special gets rid of the dependency on Concealed/Disguised Weapon. Using it once per game to equip a 5-pool equipment doesn´t make a lot of sense to me. If I was to build a Fatima deck I would have more useful support vampires in there who can Heidelberg or plain old get the weapons Fatima equips, and that she should do often so you need cheaper weapons (Ivory Bow, .44 ..).

Don´t rely on multirush, but rather rushing with 2-3 vampires. Capitalize on your CEL instead of needing to be Anarch to play those cards. I would think about dropping the whole Anarch angle (it really doesn´t make decks better usually) and concentrate on Assamites, using Loss, Fame and Dragonbound for ousting. Put some bloat in there (Khabar: Loyalty or Haqim's Law: Leadership OR Provision of the Silsila/Villein) and some defense (Nest of Eagles, Black Sunrise).

See I am not trying to make this a girls deck, but I think the concept needs a major overhaul.

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30 Apr 2012 10:04 #29028 by Ohlmann
Replied by Ohlmann on topic Re: Fatima leads the revolt
As a fun idea on Fatima, use its special to get some wooden stake, and tremere support for Biothaumaturgic experiment ?

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01 May 2012 09:27 #29124 by Pendargon
@ Johannes

You are both right and wrong, if you would allow me to explain.

It is true, i want to play *this* Fatima deck. A deck that has fatima multirushing, and a deck that has anarch angle to it. Now, i do not expect miracles, nor did i ever claim this is THE deck to win european championship with. What i do think, is that the deck has some potential, and i am asking the community to help me make it better, if i missed something, and other important and valid suggestions.

Now, on one hand i got some really good and constructive suggestions like :
1. support cast could be better (be it weenie dom dudes, Ventrue or Trem support, whatever), or go all assamites and bloat with HL and Heartblooods.
2. Deck is seriously short on defensive potential apart form backrushing ( to be remedied in some way)
3. I missed some obvious cards (like crimethinc, Steely teenacity, blood turnip, Giant's blood).

Those are constructive advices. And there are non-constructive ones like Izaak's or yours (no offense, i hold great respect for you both as a player and a VEKN inner circle member, but i think your deck idea is not very good, i can explain it in a PM if you like, not to clutter the thread).

If i could draw a parallel here :
A week or so ago you posted on the forums a lovely !Nos rush combat deck, and asked people to take a look at it and comment. It is a really nice deck, with its strengths and weaknesses (very fun to play, i tried it).

Now, imagine me commenting on it like this :
"Hey, Johannes, it is nice that you tried !Nos combat, but combat sucks and you have to backrush sometimes. So, i would ditch all combat module, all deep songs, preter strengths and Heroic mights, and all the red cards. You are playing !Nos with dominate, here, hey!!! It is better to instead of all that, you put in Governs and Conditionings and a nice obfuscate stealth package, and another Enkil cog or two. Then, stack on permanent intercept with raven spies and abbots, and then block people with animalism untaps and Eternal vigilance and play obedience!!! That will help you utilize enkil cog more with dominate bleeds. And toss in a majesty or two as a surprise effect, nobody expects this from Cailean. That is a much better deck, when you analyze Cailean as a Vampire... "

See... That was not very constructive at all ^^^^^, now...

So unless my point is not clear : when i post a deck idea, it is because i would like the community to help me work that idea to the best of that ideas limited possibilities ie. Make best possible Fatima rush deck with anarch angle, because that is what i want to take to my regular saturday night gaming night this week. Saying : that sucks, go make something else is really helping nobody here

:QUI: :POT: :OBE: :CEL: :OBF: :tore: :assa:

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01 May 2012 10:22 #29130 by johannes

Those are constructive advices. And there are non-constructive ones like Izaak's or yours (no offense, i hold great respect for you both as a player and a VEKN inner circle member, but i think your deck idea is not very good, i can explain it in a PM if you like, not to clutter the thread).


Hmm I thought my advice was constructive, I mean you don´t have to do all of it. Haqim`s Law: Leadership for example still works nicely with multi-act. You could also take the idea of having more useful support minions by making them, say, for/cel minions and have the cheaper weapons.

May main points being that the deck would be much better when:
- Capitalizing more on Fatima´s special (cheaper weapons)
- Eventually having a second minion to rush

It is always hard to know which level of change you are looking for. I usually look for more substantial changes than single cards so I tend to be on the extreme side :)

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