A Debate Worth Having

brandonsantacruz wrote:

fredsct wrote:

brandonsantacruz wrote:

If this deck is your pred you just bleed forward and win.

Smiling jack backfired against you more than once because you did so little bleeding and voting, spent too much pool, and could be ignored. Without the weenies and babies the deck simply doesn't win.

You only saw it played twice, which doesn't give you a very good basis to deconstruct it. As with any deck, my Brujah Debate deck is vulnerable to drawing the wrong cards at the wrong time. When that's Smiling Jack being drawn before the table collapses down, one of your options is to just play it early anyway and get what mileage you can out of it. I don't think it actually backfired when I played it; it just didn't do anything positive for me that you could see. In this case, the biggest positive thing was, I got it out of my hand so I could start drawing the early game things I needed. (In fact, IIRC, in at least one of those games, I didn't draw my Parthenon for some turns - making me especially vulnerable to Master Card jam, making it important to play the master cards I could during the master phase so I could save my discard phase for unplayabhle or otherwise irrelavent minion cards.)

It may have looked to you like I was spending too much pool but you have to do that to make the deck work. With Jaroslav, large numbers of Second Traditions, and the proclivities of most opponents (rightly or wrongly) to spend their actions going after Brujah Debates, being bled out isn't actually much of a danger - at least, not until your position has been otherwsie decimated with the Debates being gone and the Rack being controlled by someone else. I actually wish my prey would bleed forward. That way: 1) it would be much easier to defend my stuff from my predator; and 2) the table would collapse sooner setting the stage for the endgame and the Smiling Jack that I've inevitably drawn six or eight turns too early. But my experience with it is otherwise: almost all of my prey inevitably go backwards and try to remove Brujah Debates - even after I've torped two or three of their minions. And they will defend that behavior with their last breath. Oh, well - mine is not to question why; I just load the deck up with Second Traditions and wait for them to come...

Your comment about the babeis is probably a fair one. Babies would be nice, I agree. It's just that the way the deck is constructed, spending 10 on a star vampire and a bunch of other pool on the Parthenon and Brujah Debates, it just isn't practical to try to create a breeding progam, too. But I really don't see why it should need that. It's not breed deck; it's a wall deck. And it wins the way wall decks win. I've just been getting too much table hate for whatever reason to win with it consistently.

brandonsantacruz wrote:

fredsct wrote:

brandonsantacruz wrote:

If this deck is your pred you just bleed forward and win.

Which one? The deck Chris proposed or my deck?

In either case, with Debates on the table and Second Tradition intercept, you'd have to take some care your bleeders didn't get turned into grease spots, I'd think.

Chris's deck is more weenie vote, where yours is more wall. Smiling jack backfired against you more than once because you did so little bleeding and voting, spent too much pool, and could be ignored. Without the weenies and babies the deck simply doesn't win.

Winning is overrated without style points accompanying vps


Seriously though, one look is hard to make a call on. First game i ran my Matthias deck ever, i sweapt, and had a few minions i dont even run by the end. I doubt ill do that again though.

Having said that, a HUGE pitfall of wall decks is lack of forward pressure on pool or minions. In some walls, i like to bleed for 3 just to remind them i habe minions every other turn, or in others i dunk an 8 cap who was full as soon as i draw a fame. Not dying is quite important, but with beads on minions and in pool(blood becomes pool quick anymore...) your prey in a wall or combat wall can become yoir predator in 50 minutes jist by lack of them having apredator.

I had a really fun Anatole madness network wall with flamethrowers that used games and pranks liberally to prop up my grandprey or whoever as i got jack to 5 is, eagles sighting and dunking my prey and predator as needed, then once someone got ousted, id barrel into my prey and let jack at 5 run its course....

Harx to pull of, though, and frankly blood and pool management wasnt easy, and looks harder here.

Most potencexwith fortitude laughs, celerity guns is a coin toss on a good draw, stealthbleed miles, taps, and giggles as you try to kill all thier minions and let them cycle blaxk boxes for cards saying +?bleed.
Carlton and ossian would help

I just see a deck punching HARD but not really feeling the taking it or ousting or coping with 3+ stealth.

Im not criticizing though, this is a deck on par with STUFF IM NOTORIOUS FOR RUNNING IN TOURNAMENTS. But because of that, i know how i lose without great draws or good seating. My infinate earth meld foolds to stealthbleed and grapple, so locally i cry, big tourneys im scary. This deck is like a 30x more reliable version of some !brujah and gangrel decks ive toyed with, and in casual, these things come up right, good decks dont overpower you because they flow right. Then a tournaments firzt table happens, you punish your predator, yoir prwys to 4 pool..... and then recovers, you never beat them back, and end up only suceding at not dying.

Now, thats just what ive seen happen, and i cant give advice because i cant see a great way to fix problems, other than maybe sheepdog for people tapping anyway or abactor if voting stays your lock, but judfement camseg could be neat.
Outside of those, it looks almost where you want it. Good luck.