Expansion Update

KevinM wrote:

Brum wrote:

Villeins are 12+ US Doll. Don't know where you find them as cheap as 6.

There was recently an eBay auction for 6x Villein that went for $36. These auctions show up on eBay all the time.

Each time I go to eBay, I only see ludicrous prices for Villeins, but as you know very well I believe you, of course.

Must be like Matrix II and III or SW Episode III. They had good parts that explain the holes in the stories. I was just unfortunate enough to blink during those times.
This time I completely fell asleep.

About the value of the game dropping if we allow some proxies: I disagree allot with this. Don't call it "fact" without giving numbers or supportive arguments, please.

MtG has a format called Vintage. Every card is legal and it holds no banned cards, but a huge list of restricted cards (max one copy per deck).
There's cards like the fabled Power Nine that have idiotic prices, even for Magic.
One of the fastest growing formats a while back was a Vintage format you could use a limited number of proxies in your deck (more than nine).
Wizards has contracts with other companies that disclose a list of cards they cannot reprint ever. This is the way to circumvent that.
MtG doesn't lose market value because of two things: the number of boxes they sell and the number of players in tournaments.

Honestly if I thought that this idea would be bad for the game, I would not support it. Please believe me in that.
I'm not saying it has to be today or next year.
Maybe when we have an EC with less than 70 people, like 2018?
I just don't want to get to that number. Then VtES would be worth less than it is today.

BTW, we give Black Hand decks to new players for free. Isn't that doing proxies in a way? Ian Forestal, Disarm, Terror Frenzy and the like lose market value because they are free.
If only there was a huge print run of Heirs to the Blood decks.

New VEKN expansions are great because it generates interest and keeps / increases the player base.

direwolf wrote:

nc-italy wrote:

By your logic, a VENK supported, fan created expansion will also be "suicidal in the respect of keeping the game of some interest for any company that could pick it up again in the future." Why should a publisher print a game where the fans create their own cards and print them for competitive play?

Yea. Idea with the pdf set is quite bad.

nc-italy wrote:

It's "not my logic", it's just a fact given by value and market standards, proxing of the old cards would destroy the value of the game - period

This is complete and utter nonsense.

The only thing that will destroy the value of the game from the point of view of a future producer, is if there are no players for the game.
Lack of players, nothing else.

The question then is, if the goal is to keep the game alive, is allowing the proxying of cards going to increase or reduce the number of active players?

There are a small few players on this board who claim they will stop playing the game if proxies are made legal. In Ireland we would call this "cutting off your nose to spite your face". That is, the person they are most hurting by their actions (ie withdrawing from the game) are themselves.

Allowing proxies is required if we want to attract new players though.
It is very easy for us to point at the prices of booster boxes online and say that they've never been cheaper. This is true. Easy to say that a tournament quality deck is easier and cheaper to build for Vtes than for Magic. This is also true. But new players don't normally buy boxes online, and most new players are more interested in designing their own decks than in netdecking from the twda.
When I was starting out I could walk into my local game shop, buy a handful of boosters, tweak my deck with what I got from there, and trade some with friends who were building other decks. This option is not available to new players any more.
To get players into the game it needs to be easy for them to 1) design their own deck, 2) build, play around with and change that deck within their local playgroup, and 3) take their own deck to a local tournament.
Telling people to buy cards online when they don't yet know what cards they want, or to buy boxes of boosters for a game they are thinking of getting into, is not going to entice new players.
Allowing proxies is not the ideal situation, but it's certainly better than not allowing them.

Assuming that the goal is to keep the game alive by attracting new players, the question shouldn't be if VEKN should allow proxies, but when should VEKN start allowing proxies.

nc-italy wrote:

As far as i can tell and know, the vekn goal currently is to have the game published again in the future; small pdf sets fits for that goal

That may be the primary long term goal, but it needs to be supported by short and medium term goals and objectives.

Two of the possible medium term goals which support the long term goal are 1) retain existing players, and 2) attract new players.

Publishing small (or medium) sets, whether PDF or otherwise, supports the first of those two. It doesn't do much about the second though. And since numbers were already (allegedly) low before the game ceased official publication, I don't think retaining just our current player base would be enough to get the game picked up again. Even assuming it is possible to achieve 100% successful player retention.

So I think if VEKN want to achieve their primary goal, they have to also attract new players. I'm not sure how this discussion got onto the topic of proxies, but if they are to be sanctioned it should be to support the secondary goal of encouraging new players.