Expansion Update

A little advice on internet etiquette:

If you are truly interested in coming to some sort of agreement (and we must assume that you are, since this is a forum for "discussing") don't start your posts of with "This is complete and utter nonsense. ", "You know full well that this is complete bullshit.", and more stuff along those lines.

This is not about whether people are too sensitive or not. It's purely a point to increase the quality of the communication.

(if you are only here to rant and don't care about reaching an agreement, then carry on)

Since to new players all cards are new, the mini expansions will only be relevant if they bring better cards than the existing ones.
Also it's kind of ironic that the new expansion will close the gap to a crypt that is hardly available anymore.
Our Chairman's online store is out of Heirs to the Blood boxes, Potomac has them at 156$ and Fantasiapelit has them a 100€.
That leads me to conclude that HttB is running out.

So, I think that the new expansions are awesome to keep the current players interested. The new players? Kinda irrelevant, since they can only gain access to group 3 and 4 vampires.

I'm still very interested in reading about actual examples, numbers or arguments that support the notion that some proxies might devalue the game as a whole to new investors, other than "it will, trust me".
I've given arguments on the other way.
I've given examples of how proxying (with some well based limits) generated interest in a game from the same market industry.
Looking at TWD you see that some chase cards are used much more than others.
I still think that the number of players playing competitively is our biggest asset of value, now that we cannot number release sales.
I'm very open to contrary argumentation.

Do you agree that the number of players participating in the game is more important than the value of our Enkil Cogs?
It seems to me many of you do not, that's all.

Brum wrote:

Do you agree that the number of players participating in the game is more important than the value of our Enkil Cogs?
It seems to me many of you do not, that's all.

I think this is an unfair assumption. This discussion is all about if the allowance of proxies is drawing more players into the game or not. It is not about if our cards lose value. If it would be that easy as you assume, that proxies in tournaments leads surely to a boost in players of course nobody would be against it. But there are doubts about that and concerns, that a company in the future would not pick up the production of the game if all so far printed cards were free.

Furthermore I uttered my sad feelings about the dimishing value of my cards if proxies would be tournament legal. Of course I would take that loss of value if it helped my loved game. Others may think the same. Again others may not. Bad feelings of customers should never be underestimated.

BTW I never met a new player who said: "That Monastery of Shadows is rare stinks". There are good cards in the game you can chase and get one way or the other. If it is too expensive for you as a hobby you can proxy it for casual play or substitue it for tournament play with another good card. That doesn't lead to an automatic game loss. I even think it is arguable, if it weakens your deck significantly. Yes, you can't build that Mind Rape Deck (unless your playgroup lend you theirs). So what? You can play that many times with your proxies. At a tournament you can play another nice deck. In Germany a guy always plays Jyhad-only decks. And you know what: he enters finals almost every time he participates (FYI he played Malk-breed-vote with Progenies, Ventrue lawfirm, Tremere wall).

I think the statements of both sides are clear now. We don't come to an satisfying consensus. Probably a survey with new players (or would be players) would get us further. Does anybody like to create a form for a survey princes can do with their players?

@nc-italy:

You keep insisting that proxies = free cards to a potential publisher. Someone has already pointed out that proxies are only a band-aid. It's a policy that is reversible.

If the game is published than proxies would no longer be allowed in competitive play. Each base set of V:tES reprints a lot of cards, and a new publisher would have to do the same.

If VEKN were to allow proxy events alongside standard events, we could generate some data on what proxies players are using. Done properly, it would give a publisher MORE incentive to pick up the game. We would already have research on which cards to reprint, and players will buy them because they are using them already and would like to continue using them.

Now I understand better the point of people that are against Proxies.
I never agreed that all cards should be proxied.
I never said it should be forever.
But I do see that the way things are (here comes another controversial statement), it is very hard for new players to play competitively with big caps.

I think that if we ever have proxies, people will be happy to give that away in order to have a company pick the game.
And once that happens, it is their policy of bans, tournament support, reprints and new releases that will prevail.
And we'll be here to make them accountable for it. B)

Emiliano: what I mean by writing about the availability or not of some crypts to new players is that the one that would be good to join with the new expansion (group 5) is less available. This is an argument to say that the new expansion is less interesting to new players, or players without KoT.
Lords of the Night is still available, I think, and full of group 5 vampires, so there's that. And the fact that the group 5 Sabbat are easy to get might undermine my argument.
So yeah, I was wrong in saying that the new expansion might be less attractive to new players.