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file Two levels of the game

28 Nov 2016 07:29 #79287 by Ashur
Replied by Ashur on topic Two levels of the game

My suggestion for anyone reprinting this game (and for the VEKN) is to consider two formats:


It will not fly - not only cards are a problem, but rules bloat also, so the new version will not be comparable with the old one from he beginning. Then there is a marketing problem - you can't hope to succesfully sell product which is just some introduction to out of print game.

Then there are tournaments which, obviously will be in new format. Even in MTG with their numbers of players vintage tournaments are very rare, no way nishe game publisher will got resourses be support it.

So as a result most players will just move to new game. See new edition of GoT LCG for example.

I´m getting a bit tired of your argumentation elotar. Or rather your lack of argumentation. Why are rules bloat a problem in a format (format 1) that is restricted to less cards? Wouldn´t rules bloat be MUCH LESS of a problem in such a format? (Ie, what I desired with the idea)

And why would the game be marketed (or percieved) as a " introduction to out of print game"?! More likely the new format (format 1) would be the main tournament format, and the old format with just be casual or a occasional tournament format (let´s say a side event format).

I have no idea of GoT LCG. I´ve played the first version, and that was just totally random bullshit in my book. VTES is a great game, so why not have some faith in it instead of just writing totally random rants?
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28 Nov 2016 08:50 - 28 Nov 2016 08:50 #79288 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic Two levels of the game

I´m getting a bit tired


it feels, because you are failing to read my arguments.

Why are rules bloat a problem in a format (format 1) that is restricted to less cards?


Rules bloat is a problem for VtES. So when you introduce new edition with some rules removed, like imbued, events, life of allies ets., then you'll got non comparable games on the rules level. You can work around it, obviously, but most players of the new game with not bother with it.

More likely the new format (format 1) would be the main tournament format, and the old format with just be casual or a occasional tournament format (let´s say a side event format).


And then the old format will be dropped and the game, as we like it, dies.

I have no idea of GoT LCG.


It's recurring problem out there - we got 20+ years of industry knowledge, but most partisipants know nothing about it, and don't want to hear when somebody trying to tell them.
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Last edit: 28 Nov 2016 08:50 by elotar.

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28 Nov 2016 10:14 #79291 by Ashur
Replied by Ashur on topic Two levels of the game

Rules bloat is a problem for VtES. So when you introduce new edition with some rules removed, like imbued, events, life of allies ets., then you'll got non comparable games on the rules level. You can work around it, obviously, but most players of the new game with not bother with it.

So what? Let those new players play the rules-lighter game/format then. What´s the problem with that?

And then the old format will be dropped and the game, as we like it, dies.

Well, it seem´s that "as we like it" is mostly "as elotar likes it". I argument for saving the game IN SOME FORM. What I suppose (the two formats I mention above) is to save the game in some form, ie a great tournament/entry level and a more casual/advanced level. Saying "it won´t fly" is just strange. It will largly depend on what profit margin the producer is after, and profit margin is not everything, at least not for White Wolf. I think the "format 1" can grow the player base, meanwhile allowing oldtimers to continue playing the "classic format" and getting some new cards for it once in a while. Commander for MtG (a format allowing almost all Mtg cards) is growing LIKE HELL, I guess you might have noticed that, being so into the industry and all?
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28 Nov 2016 11:09 #79292 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic Two levels of the game

I argument for saving the game IN SOME FORM. What I suppose (the two formats I mention above) is to save the game in some form, ie a great tournament/entry level and a more casual/advanced level.


I think that core mechanics of VtES is great, but there are many great games out there. You can play mtg multiplayer with predator-prey relationships and it works just fine. 20 years of history and depth of many sets is what making VtES unique. And so I want the game to be "saved" in this form (obviously as much, as it's possible - no way for imbueds to be saved).

If you think that it will be fine to reboot the game with several hundred cards and noncomparable rules, than we got no room for argument. Yea, for a publisher it will be fine, and the players will be there.

I would just say, that your hope, that there will be "second format" for a long time is futile - number of players for VtES are not enougth to support several formats.

PS: Do you know anything about MTG comander? It allows 1 copy of each card in 100 card deck. It is kind of as far from normal mtg as it's possible. I don't want VtES to transform into something like it.
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28 Nov 2016 11:25 #79293 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic Two levels of the game
I'm so with Ashur here.

As well as growing even more tired than usually to elotar's whining... (apologies for bluntess!)
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28 Nov 2016 12:16 #79296 by Ashur
Replied by Ashur on topic Two levels of the game

If you think that it will be fine to reboot the game with several hundred cards and noncomparable rules, than we got no room for argument. Yea, for a publisher it will be fine, and the players will be there.

I propose the rules to be pretty much as is. It is the selection of cards for the reprint that would define the format, not rules changes.

I would just say, that your hope, that there will be "second format" for a long time is futile - number of players for VtES are not enougth to support several formats.

Why? Pretty much everybody I talk to that have played VTES recognize it´s qualities. As you have stated several times, it is the cheer amout of cards to learn (and buy) that scares off most. In my experience.

PS: Do you know anything about MTG comander? It allows 1 copy of each card in 100 card deck. It is kind of as far from normal mtg as it's possible. I don't want VtES to transform into something like it.

Yes, I know quite alot about Commander. I said "a format allowing almost all Mtg cards" with the banlist in mind (currently 34 cards out of 16 000+ cards!). I did not say anything about the number of each card allowed in a deck. Do you misunderstand me because you want to?
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