Two levels of the game

alek wrote:

I think that can be said about almost every aspect of our lives where skill matters. Professionalls will have easy way against amatours.

You missed the point. I'm not saying that it's bad that better players are winning, obvously it is the whole idea of playing such game as VtES. I'm saying, that there are aspects in the game which are not fun for the casual guys and for a game not to die we have to find a way to minimize them even if they are not a problem for "professionals".

alek wrote:

From the card design point of view, casual play is treated very seriously. Most new cards (pdf sets) are created more for casual players than having tournament scene in mind.

Yea. New sets, by the way, are good in this regard, so we got enough desigh ability to fix mistakes made by earlier sets. Why not to do it?

elotar wrote:

alek wrote:

I think that can be said about almost every aspect of our lives where skill matters. Professionalls will have easy way against amatours.

You missed the point. I'm not saying that it's bad that better players are winning, obvously it is the whole idea of playing such game as VtES. I'm saying, that there are aspects in the game which are not fun for the casual guys and for a game not to die we have to find a way to minimize them even if they are not a problem for "professionals".

I can't agree with you for two reasons : my 9 & 11 kids, who don't speak English and saw me playing once a year at VtES.
My daughter asked to be taught how to play and last year (for her firts 5 player games) she got into the final and qualified for the French National Championship !
At 11 !!! And now my son will play at the same annual tournament at 10 y.o.

So if my kids can play with, let's say Bram Van Stappen, Mehdi Mazni and their friends why should we simplify the game ???

Vlad wrote:

So if my kids can play with, let's say Bram Van Stappen, Mehdi Mazni and their friends why should we simplify the game ???

Great kids you have, as I see. Congrats. Unfortinately, even if you'll try at your best ability, you can't "make" enougth players to fill for all leaving the game all around the world, and other, as I see, got no such luck.

So me have to invent some other ways to grow playerbase

I can see an argument for V:TES segregating player skill more than various other CCGs. Clearly, not as much as, say, Magic does.

That can come from complexity of rules, challenges with deckbuilding that seem to be much greater than in other games due in some significant part to no card limits, too many people trying to play the game as a two-player or three-player experience (I caused my predator to lose, hurrah!!), and whatever.

As evidence of the frustrations of casual play, I've played under house rules many, many times. Then, there's group biases. One group would have everyone on the table try to annihilate anyone who played a vote deck, for instance.

On the other hand, I really enjoy the game, still,, after 20 years of playing. I prefer casual play, though I like tournaments existing to provide some structure for the player base. I may enjoy casual play because I know the game well and find deckbuilding easy and can adjust to better strategies and varying table dynamics.

On the third hand, I've played with people that just aren't fun to play with because they never learn, always play the same decks, don't really grasp how to win just how to do one thing and cause someone else to win. CCGs are hard. V:TES might be more complex, but I've played with such people in a number of different CCGs. Some people are just better suited to some other activity, whether a different CCG (perhaps a two-player), a board game, poker, street fighting, whatever.

I'm not really into doing things I'm bad at. So, I like to learn, even if it's to just rise to the level of mediocrity. I expect that in others, but it doesn't always exist. When that desire to get better exists, I think it's more about teaching. When it doesn't, I don't know what you do.

Ashur wrote:

My suggestion for anyone reprinting this game (and for the VEKN) is to consider two formats:

It will not fly - not only cards are a problem, but rules bloat also, so the new version will not be comparable with the old one from he beginning. Then there is a marketing problem - you can't hope to succesfully sell product which is just some introduction to out of print game.

Then there are tournaments which, obviously will be in new format. Even in MTG with their numbers of players vintage tournaments are very rare, no way nishe game publisher will got resourses be support it.

So as a result most players will just move to new game. See new edition of GoT LCG for example.