file Camaraderie played by Angelo and Mata Hari

20 May 2023 20:45 - 21 May 2023 14:14 #108130 by inm8
The below question was asked in the discord which lead to some discussion and would be good to have an official ruling.


Can Camaraderie be played at superior by Angelo when the only other supporting vampire is Mata Hari that is unlocked? If not, please elaborate as to why not, thanks.


As per my interpretation, it is playable with the below rationale:

Angelo and you as the Methuselah play Camaraderie at :SAN: as it has been ruled that minion cards are played by both and not just the minion --> ruling

The requirements of Camaraderie "Only usable if you control another ready unlocked Blood Brother of the same circle as this Blood Brother." are met by the below combo:

  • Mata Hari´s special allows her to be seen as a Blood Brother (that is in a unique "circle of one") as the card is played by "you" aka the Methuselah

  • Angelo´s special is applicable to himself when playing cards requiring :san: which allows him to be seen as belonging to the same unique "circle of one" that Mata Hari belongs to as it isn´t limited to Blood Brother cricles
    supporting ruling that he can mimic a "circle of one"

  • Assumption is that both Angelo´s and Mata Hari´s specials are applicable when the card is played simultaneously and that Mata Hari´s special is applicable also when "you" aka the Methuselah is playing a card with another minion

Angelo


Mata Hari


Camaraderie
Last edit: 21 May 2023 14:14 by inm8. Reason: Spelling error
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22 May 2023 00:51 #108134 by ReverendRevolver
I'd say no, because:
Mata Hari can count as a ready, unlocked blood brother, but the whole circle bit is not an innate trait applied by the rules to all blood Brothers. Just like Flight isn't applied to Clan Impetsonated Gargoyles, Infernal to impersonated Baali, or scarce to an impersonated Abomination/Trujah/Salubri/nagaraja, Mata Hari counts as a Blood Brother, but doesn't have a circle.

Compare with New Blood: if you summon history at superior for a new blood, or undue influence it up, or any other method of putting it in play that doesn't happen during influence phase, it has no circle.

Circle is not innate and therefore Mata has no circle.

Could be wrong, but that's how I read other cards in the sane situation.

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22 May 2023 06:18 #108136 by inm8
Check the linked supporting ruling where there is also confirmation that all vampires belong to a circle, thing is that most belong to unique “circles of one” opposed to most Blood Brothers that belong to specific names circles

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22 May 2023 07:49 - 22 May 2023 07:52 #108138 by alf
I'd say no, because Angelo is the one playing the reaction card.
Therefore Mata Hari's special doesn't trigger.
It's neither her nor "you" that plays the card.
"You" referring to non-minion-cards played by the methuselah (usually master cards) and reactions being minion cards played by a minion (in this case other than Mata Hari).

<INSERT CLEVER QUOTATION HERE>
Last edit: 22 May 2023 07:52 by alf.

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22 May 2023 12:36 - 22 May 2023 12:48 #108141 by Ankha

The below question was asked in the discord which lead to some discussion and would be good to have an official ruling.

Can Camaraderie be played at superior by Angelo when the only other supporting vampire is Mata Hari that is unlocked? If not, please elaborate as to why not, thanks.

No. Mata Hari is not considered a BB by Camaraderie since 1/ she's not playing the card 2/ the card doesn't require a Blood Brother to play (no clan symbol in the requirement bar, doesn't state "only usable by a Blood Brother").

As per my interpretation, it is playable with the below rationale:

Angelo and you as the Methuselah play Camaraderie at :SAN: as it has been ruled that minion cards are played by both and not just the minion --> ruling
The requirements of Camaraderie "Only usable if you control another ready unlocked Blood Brother of the same circle as this Blood Brother.

It is not a requirement that a minion must meet in order to play the card, it is what we could call a "game state requirement" such as having a valid target when you play a card that requires one. The requirement to play the card for the minion is Sanguinus, and Angelo is meeting that requirement to play the card.
Controlling another ready unlocked BB is another requirement, but that does not apply to the minion playing the card, so it doesn't interact with Mata Hari's ability.
For instance, you couldn't use the burn option of the card if it had one if you control a vampire with Sanguinus but no other ready unlocked BB.

So basically, "you can play cards as if..." only matters for master cards you play. "She can play cards as if..." only matters for minion cards she plays.

Mata Hari´s special allows her to be seen as a Blood Brother (that is in a unique "circle of one") as the card is played by "you" aka the Methuselah

Mata Hari isn't playing that card in order to mimick the clan (and it doesn't require a BB anyway).

The rest doesn't matter.

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Last edit: 22 May 2023 12:48 by Ankha.

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22 May 2023 12:52 #108142 by Ankha

I'd say no, because:
Mata Hari can count as a ready, unlocked blood brother, but the whole circle bit is not an innate trait applied by the rules to all blood Brothers. Just like Flight isn't applied to Clan Impetsonated Gargoyles, Infernal to impersonated Baali, or scarce to an impersonated Abomination/Trujah/Salubri/nagaraja, Mata Hari counts as a Blood Brother, but doesn't have a circle.

Compare with New Blood: if you summon history at superior for a new blood, or undue influence it up, or any other method of putting it in play that doesn't happen during influence phase, it has no circle.

Circle is not innate and therefore Mata has no circle.


The default is that every vampire without an explicit circle has an implicit distinct circle (distinct = no vampire can have that same circle).
Angelo can "join" any circle for the purpose of the resolution of a card played by another BB, but it's a unique ability.

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Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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