What makes a clan strong?

There's a bit of discussion going around about so-called "weak" clans. There's no consensus on what makes a clan strong or weak. There's also no consensus on the criteria; for example, some people believe that star vampires like Aksinya Daclau don't contribute to clan strength. For what it's worth I totally reject that notion, but that's not the whole point of this thread. I am just going to throw out some thoughts here and hope something useful comes out of it.

Some clans are good because they have a good discipline in clan (e.g. Dominate).

Some clans are good because their clan-specific library cards are strong (e.g. Palla Grande).

Some clans are good because they have particularly strong vampires due to titles or other special abilities (e.g. Nosferatu Royalty).

Anyone care to dispute those? Are there any other criteria?

"strong" discipline and clan-specific card are also a bit misleadind. After all, nobody can say that, ofr example, Auspex is superior to dominate or vice versa.

Also, saying that dominate is strong is one thing, but !ventrue, Kyaside, and Brujah royalty (I.E. the deck that use big Brujah prince with Dominate) does not exactly use dominate in the same way. So it may be more of a synergy between card and / or the ability to have a focused strategy.

To give a more precise example, it's pretty well known that while Protean and Celerity are both average to good for combat, Protean + Celerity does not add the same value to a strategy use as could Potence + Celerity can be, or even WWS + Celerity.

Dorrinal wrote:

There's a bit of discussion going around about so-called "weak" clans. There's no consensus on what makes a clan strong or weak. There's also no consensus on the criteria; for example, some people believe that star vampires like Aksinya Daclau don't contribute to clan strength. For what it's worth I totally reject that notion, but that's not the whole point of this thread. I am just going to throw out some thoughts here and hope something useful comes out of it.

I do think that Aksinya (and Una) contribute to the strength of the !Gangrel. But I don't think Girls decks (starring Aksinya) or Una decks are accurate barometers of the !Gangrel's strength. Also, both Aksinya and Una have synergy with the rest of the clan. Vampires with more extreme discipline spreads tend to be more problematic for the overall clan (though it's a bit better when you have a lot of crypt cards in that Grouping, so it's less of an issue). For example, a 6-cap with would be a terrible Osebo who would *not* really contribute to the clan's "strength," even though the individual vampire would be quite good. And Osebo players would be rightly wondering "so this is really just an extra Ventrue vampire, but taking up an Osebo slot."

Some clans are good because they have a good discipline in clan (e.g. Dominate).

Some clans are good because their clan-specific library cards are strong (e.g. Palla Grande).

Some clans are good because they have particularly strong vampires due to titles or other special abilities (e.g. Nosferatu Royalty).

Anyone care to dispute those? Are there any other criteria?

There is also the vague concept of "synergy."

Synergy between the different clan disciplines (and common out-of-clan disciplines). Synergy between the vampires (and vampires from other clans). Synergy between specials and clan cards.

Besides the actual clan disciplines, you should also factor in common out-of-clan disciplines.

Some people might argue sect affiliation.

Some people might argue that particular drawbacks or negative traits, make some clans bad.

Dorrinal wrote:

There's a bit of discussion going around about so-called "weak" clans. There's no consensus on what makes a clan strong or weak.

STRONG: as an in-clan discipline
WEAK: as an in-clan discipline

Sinergy and key vampires in all groups.

KevinM wrote:

Dorrinal wrote:

There's a bit of discussion going around about so-called "weak" clans. There's no consensus on what makes a clan strong or weak.

STRONG: as an in-clan discipline.

There is a correlation, but it's not a sufficient condition. The Nagaraja are a good example.

WEAK: as an in-clan discipline

That might have been true once (when Quietus was really bad), but it has come a long way since. While the Assamites certainly aren't one of the top clans, I wouldn't really put them at the very bottom either.