What makes a clan strong?

Ohlmann wrote:

Lönkka wrote:

I've always thought that these were vampires that didn't know what clan they belonged to for various reasons ("love childs" that were created in secrecy without the permission to do so and abandoned etc etc)

Well, they usually don't harbor the traditionnal weakness and don't pay less for their sire discipline, so it seem to be much more than abandonment. Except if you believe clan weakness and discipline being entirely due to education, but it don't sit well with some other abandoned vampires at embrace that still are from the clan.

Their blood are too weak to actually inherit clan weakness and disciplines, they are odd. There are some caitiff who were born say 8 generation (and they were sign of gehenna), but most are 13-14-15th generation. (cain is 1st).

Lönkka wrote:

I've always thought that these were vampires that didn't know what clan they belonged to for various reasons ("love childs" that were created in secrecy without the permission to do so and abandoned etc etc)

That was an additional character background for Caitiff in the RPG. They could be "thin-blooded" - of such a high generation that the bloodline could no longer be transmitted, "defectives" - meaning that the bloodline did not get transmitted for some unknown reason regardless of generation, or "abandoned". The thing is that there are examples of abandoned vampires who are considered to be part of a clan since they have discernible clan curse/disciplines. Maybe the defectives were abandoned because they were defective. The "abandoned" Caitiff is the idea behind the card Revelation of the Sire.

Maldavis, an important Caitiff NPC from Chicago by Night who appears in VTES, did not initially know the clan of her sire, Dusable, since he left her to die in the light of the rising sun after having drained her dry in a fit of frenzy and then feeding her a drop of his blood. Of course, Dusable was a Tremere and so had no true clan curse to transmit. (The Tremere's "curse" is that they are part of clan Tremere, basically.) That's another thing - the Tremere are definitely a clan, but it's questionable as to whether they are a bloodline. Since Maldavis became a Caitiff, it makes one think that the Tremere's in-clan disciplines are in-clan just because they are purposefully propagated.

It makes one wonder if the disciplines (in the OWoD RPG) are really tied to the bloodline or if they are related to being taught first or even to the fact that vampires of a certain clan have a stereotypical personality that naturally takes to certain disciplines. I kind of think they are tied to the bloodline, but that the authors of the RPG fudged a bit with the Caitiff in order to create more character background options.

Aaron wrote:

Of course, Dusable was a Tremere and so had no true clan curse to transmit. (The Tremere's "curse" is that they are part of clan Tremere, basically.) That's another thing - the Tremere are definitely a clan, but it's questionable as to whether they are a bloodline. Since Maldavis became a Caitiff, it makes one think that the Tremere's in-clan disciplines are in-clan just because they are purposefully propagated.

Depending on the writer, Tremere can't embrace without blood from a 4th generation because their blood is too weak.

Clan weakness in general is strange with regard of bloodline. Only the 13 major clan are supposedly damned by a clan weakness ; why the Tremere, Giovanni, and 'true' bloodline have weaknesses is subject to discussion and interpretation (for example, Giovanni being cursed by Cappadocius ; Tremere being weaker than other vampires because of their strange origine, etc)

It is true that Tremere is one of the clan that educate the most their neonate. I have toyed with the idea of making young Tremere unable to learn Domination (or at least not at normal price) until they are old enough because of this.

Aaron wrote:

It makes one wonder if the disciplines (in the OWoD RPG) are really tied to the bloodline or if they are related to being taught first or even to the fact that vampires of a certain clan have a stereotypical personality that naturally takes to certain disciplines. I kind of think they are tied to the bloodline, but that the authors of the RPG fudged a bit with the Caitiff in order to create more character background options.

Well, it would be known if the RPG authors were consistent or said something clear on a subject. I think like you about the bloodline being important, but some discipline are special in this regard, namely Dementation and Vissicitude (that are contagious), and Mysterceria and Chimestry (that both require fae intervention somewhere). But it's speculation/GM interpretation more than fact.

It's also not clear whether being in a clan affect your mind. On one hand, clans like Gangrel or Brujah are a bit too homogenous ; on the other hand, Ravnos or Follower of Set, or even Nosferatu or Ventrue seem to point at education being very important.

Aaron wrote:

That's another thing - the Tremere are definitely a clan, but it's questionable as to whether they are a bloodline.

This goes into the complicated (and intentionally contradictory, from the sourcebooks) discussion of what defines a "clan" (there are interesting parallels to political science and what counts as a "nation" or "state").

One popular line of reasoning is that clans have an Antediluvian founder. This is often premised on the assumption that there were just the 13 Antediluvians. This was one of the justifications used when promoting the Tremere and Giovanni clans (who "gained" a 3rd gen through diablerie though in Augustus' case it wasn't complete) and the subsequent demotion of the Salubri and Cappadocians. Of course there's the fuzzy logic that every vampire had to have had a 3rd generation ancestor at some point (aside from Nagaraja/Tremere tricks). It's also odd because the Lasombra, Ventrue, and Setites are still considered clans even though their Ante's supposed died.

The metaplot also provides a few clues that things could potentially be a lot more complicated. The Laibon could be bloodlines of the main clans (or maybe it's the main clans that are bloodlines from the Laibon?). The Gehenna sourcebook leaves open the possibility that there could be a lot more Antediluvians than previously thought (meaning that the Guruhi and Akunanse could actually be full-fledged "clans" with their own 3rd gen). Etc.

You also have complications of shared blood. The Tremere originally used Tzimisce blood for their transformation, and then diablerized a lot of Salubri, so many Tremere have both Tzimisce and Salubri blood in their veins. Giovanni were descended from Cappadocians. You have the Brujah / True Brujah split. Daughters of Cacophony could be from the Malks or the Toreador. There are rumors that the Baali are also descended from Saulot. Are the Nictuku a bloodline or maybe they should be the "real clan" since Absimiliard hates the Nosferatu. The Harbingers, Samedi, and Salubri antitribu are survivors of former clans. A lot of the time, it seems as if the definition of a "clan" is rather arbitrary, and it's based on whether the clan in question has sufficient political influence or power to gain recognition (which likely explains the Lasombra, Ventrue, and Setites situations, if their ante's are truly dead).

echiang wrote:

Daughters of Cacophony could be from the Malks or the Toreador.

I have seen another hypothesis that I find more convincing



In general, you can almost alway link a bloodline to a powerful entity (either demon, extremely old vampire, or other spirit realm thing) that needed a tool, but explanations would not be all convincing.

Ohlmann wrote:

echiang wrote:

Daughters of Cacophony could be from the Malks or the Toreador.

I have seen another hypothesis that I find more convincing

Warning: Spoiler!

They may had been created by the Baali, not unlike the way Tremere have created the gargoyles. They are not corrupted per se, but Melpominee have been crafted to encourage strife, and Daughter serve as bait for corrupteable vampire, the voice in their head being demons that wait for a prey.

Ah yes, I remember hearing that rumor as well.

The Toreador connection is suggested in Libellus Sanguinus 2. Can't recall off the top of my head where the Malkavian and/or Baali relations are suggested.

In general, you can almost alway link a bloodline to a powerful entity (either demon, extremely old vampire, or other spirit realm thing) that needed a tool, but explanations would not be all convincing.

Yeah, but some explanations have more canon evidence than others!