What makes a clan strong?

Ok. I'll rephrase things a bit:

BLEED (Tactic #1):
Tier 1: Dementation, Dominate, Presence
Tier 2: Chimerstry, Daimoinon, Serpentis, Vicissitude

POLITICS (Tactic #2):
Tier 1: Melpominee, Presence
Tier 2: Auspex, Obfuscate, Protean

EVASION (Tactic #3):
Tier 1: Chimerstry, Daimoinon, Dementation, Mytherceria, Necromancy, Obfuscate, Obtenebration, Protean
Tier 2: Dominate, Quietus, Serpentis

CONTROL (Tactic #4):
Tier 1: Animalism, Auspex, Spiritus
Tier 2: Abombwe, Quietus

MULTI-ACT/REACT (Tactic #5):
Tier 1: Animalism, Auspex, Celerity, Fortitude, Temporis
Tier 2: Abombwe, Celerity, Quietus, Sanguinus

COMBAT (Tactic #6):
Tier 1: Aniamalism, Celerity, Daimonion, Fortitude, Necromancy, Obeah, Obtenebration, Potence, Presence, Protean, Quietus, Sanguinus, Thaumaturgy,
Valeren, Vicissitude, Visceratika
Tier 2: Abombwe, Thanatosis


So I changed things around a bit. Tactics now and renamed Stealth/Intercept into Evasion/Control. Added Tier 1 and Tier 2. Basically, combat is *not* worth much at all. Good actions are critical. That's about it.

Dorrinal wrote:

Anyone care to dispute those? Are there any other criteria?

You might go for the terms introduced by the Players' Guide - delivery (gettings things done) and payload (the thing being done).

If you have good payload AND good delivery, it doesn't matter so much where they come from - be it good vampires, good clan cards, or good disciplines. So stealth-bleed is because it has Dominate (payload) and Obfuscate (delivery). Nosferatu Royalty has good payload (Parity Shift, KRC) and good delivery (stealth, perma-votes).

We typically regard - say - the generic Samedi deck as weak because they have good delivery mechanism (lots of stealth from Obfuscate, unblockability and untap from Fortitude) but very little pay-load. Similarly, various combat-oriented clans who don't have much in the way of being able to oust people.

It doesn't matter so much if the overall power comes from a great discipline, great vampires, or great clan cards, or a mix of any of the three. A decent (but not stellar) clan card and a mild amount of discipline-help can do a lot.

There are plenty of clans through a combination of disciplines or clan cards lack payload.

Any clan that would turn up in two or three of these lists probably deserves a boost to get them out of that group. I'm not saying that it should be done the same way (not every discipline should have Flick, not every discipline should have shedloads of Intercept) but adding in either clan cards or multi-discipline cards should be able to help these clans get themselves up out of the 'dirt'.

Low Payloads in no particular order and probably incomplete
Samedi
Gangrel
!Gangrel - Country
!Gangrel - City
!Nosferatu
Salubri
!Salubri
Assamites (barring Loss & Death-Star Cannon)
Akunanse
Harbringers (excl. Slaughterhouse-Mill)

Poor delivery in no particular order and probably incomplete
!Brujah
Brujah
Guruhi (not great options with ... ignoring Nana-ANI decks)
Osebo

Poor Defensiveness to Bleed and/or Vote (again probably incomplete)
Guruhi
Ishtarri
!Brujah
Brujah (non Eurobrujah)
!Nosferatu
Samedi
!Gangrel - City
Assamites

Jeff wrote:

Ok. I'll rephrase things a bit:

That's much better!

BLEED (Tactic #1):
Tier 1: Dementation, Dominate, Presence
Tier 2: Chimerstry, Daimoinon, Serpentis, Vicissitude

Uh, why are Chimerstry and Vicissitude considered Tier 2 bleed disciplines, when Quietus is conveniently forgotten (with its Loss)?

POLITICS (Tactic #2):
Tier 1: Melpominee, Presence
Tier 2: Auspex, Obfuscate, Protean

*Maybe* Dominate as a Tier 2. Has Hall of Hades' Court for minor vote push, plenty of reactions (Kindred Coercion and Pulling Strings)

EVASION (Tactic #3):
Tier 1: Chimerstry, Daimoinon, Dementation, Mytherceria, Necromancy, Obfuscate, Obtenebration, Protean
Tier 2: Dominate, Quietus, Serpentis[/quote]
Daimoinon has just two cards Psychomachia and I am Legion. Necromancy is in a similar situation, with mainly Spectral Divination and Call of the Hungry Dead. I don't see why they get classified under Tier 1 while Quietus (with Blood Awakening and Deed the Heart's Desire) is just Tier 2. I'd probably put Daimoinon and Necromancy as Tier 2 - they're not even close to Obfuscate, Obtenebration, and the like.

You're also forgetting Vicissitude, with Changeling and Plasmic Form, which should probably go under Tier 2. And Obeah, which I'd actually put into Tier 1, despite its relatively few cards. Repulsion is a permanent +1 stealth that doesn't slow your tempo. Neutral Guard prevents multiple minions from being able to block. And you get a little extra stealth with Gift of Sleep too and if you're desperate Safe Passage.

MULTI-ACT/REACT (Tactic #5):
Tier 1: Animalism, Auspex, Celerity, Fortitude, Temporis
Tier 2: Abombwe, Celerity, Quietus, Sanguinus

I'd probably include three tiers. Have Fortitude and Temporis in Tier 1, move Animalism, Auspex, Celerity to Tier 2, and the current Tier 2 guys into Tier 3. Also don't forget Serpentis and its Snake Drive card (Truth of a Thousand Lies).

I'd consider adding Presence (for the Majesty effect) and definitely Protean (free Earth Meld untap, plus Dual Form at inferior).

COMBAT (Tactic #6):
Tier 1: Aniamalism, Celerity, Daimonion, Fortitude, Necromancy, Obeah, Obtenebration, Potence, Presence, Protean, Quietus, Sanguinus, Thaumaturgy,
Valeren, Vicissitude, Visceratika
Tier 2: Abombwe, Thanatosis

I'd parse combat into tiers as well. Valeren really isn't at the same level as Vicissitude.

Maybe separate between offense and defense.

I can certainly be convinced that disciplines should be in one or the other tier. Most of your suggestions make good sense to me!

I was just in a rush the second pass through so it's probably incomplete. I mainly wanted to come up with some model for discussing which disciplines (and sects and clan-cards and traits) are successful at the various tactics in the game. I don't have a copy of the Player's Guide, but payload and delivery make some kind of sense. I think that bleed and politics are sufficiently different however as payload types. There are "other" types of payload, such as Hell for Leather and Enticement, but I don't think they belong in the "basic" categories.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Low Payloads in no particular order and probably incomplete
Samedi
Gangrel
!Gangrel - Country
!Gangrel - City
!Nosferatu
Salubri
!Salubri
Assamites (barring Loss & Death-Star Cannon)
Akunanse
Harbringers (excl. Slaughterhouse-Mill)

Why include the !Nos and not the Nos? Is it only because of Parity Shift and some relatively cheap Princes?

I don't think the Salubri are lacking in payload, considering the powerful Obeah cards available, especially Spirit Marionette.

Plus, I'm always a bit puzzled why the Salubri and Harbingers don't play more Pulse of the Canaille. (Doesn't work so well for the !Salubri since they are smaller, meaning the requirement and the 3 blood is a bigger impediment). I do occasionally see Pulse included in other decks with Auspex (Tzimisce, Toreador, Tremere, even wacky things like True Brujah w/ Auspex), so for the Salubri and Harbinger decks lacking forward momentum, why aren't they trying Pulse?

For the Akunanse, besides Predator's Mastery, I think they have a very underexplored card with Taking the Skin: Minion. Combined with Fortitude Freak Drive and maybe Enkil Cog, you can do some pretty sick things with it.

I disagree on the Assamites. Loss and Death Star are their strongest options, but not their only ones. You also have Khabar: Glory which is quite a good card. You have weenie swarm with Web of Knives (and ridiculous bloat with Heartblood of the Clan). Even without Death Star, you can make strong political decks. The Black Throne, Old Friends, Amaravai, and stacking counters on Alamut lets you pass PA's like Reckless Agitation. Or go play Camarilla Parity Shift with Tegyrius and his Advanced vote push.

Poor delivery in no particular order and probably incomplete
!Brujah
Brujah
Guruhi (not great options with ... ignoring Nana-ANI decks)
Osebo

If the Brujah/!Brujah are here, then the Toreador/!Toreador should be as well (Auspex doesn't help much more than Potence). Traditionally, the Tremere/!Tremere belong here as well (though Mirror Walk has helped them, just as how Resist Earth's Grasp has helped the Celerity clans). Ventrue and !Ventrue as well. All of these clans are relatively easy to block.

Poor Defensiveness to Bleed and/or Vote (again probably incomplete)
Guruhi
Ishtarri
!Brujah
Brujah (non Eurobrujah)
!Nosferatu
Samedi
!Gangrel - City
Assamites

Setites. Baali. Blood Brothers. Maybe Gargoyles. Abominations. Maybe Pander.