What makes a clan strong?

Lech wrote:

Nagaraja are good clan, but they are scarce hence they don't play well as a clan. Lack of good clan-related cards don't help them, too. But there are good nagaraja in TWDA, there is Anu, Asguresh, Veejay Vinod, Le Dinh Tho, Prejudice, Sennadurek and even Raful al-Zarqa and Kanimana Belghazi. Show me any other clan that have 80% of it's crypt choices in twda.

I believe every Salubri except Obaluaye is in the TWDA. Also, Abomination has 75% (everyone but Pariah). Scarce clans are odd because they have so few vampires - that makes the sample size unrepresentative.

I play decks, and winning with them is not that hard.

Are they actually "Nagaraja decks"? Or are they decks that happen to have some Nagaraja? Or decks that mainly use Nagaraja vampires as support? Or super-star decks? (I'm just curious).

Jeff wrote:

Updated. For Bleed and Politics, Tier 1 requires good Actions and/or Modifiers. Tier 2 requires at least a Modifier. Tier 3 requires some form of action with a bonus or reaction.

An excellent job! Perhaps I can convince you to further adjust some of your tiers?

Jeff wrote:

BLEED (Tactic #1):
Tier 1: Dementation, Dominate, Presence
Tier 2: Chimerstry, Daimoinon, Serpentis, Vicissitude
Tier 3: Abombwe, Animalism, Auspex, Obfuscate, Quietus

I'd put Quietus at Tier 2, since a single card -- Loss -- plus the inherent, almost obligatory, synthesis of quietus and obfuscate now make it a serious threat in the mind of players. In addition, Loss **all by itself** is almost better than those other four Tier 3 disciplines for bleeding.

Jeff wrote:

POLITICS (Tactic #2):
Tier 1: Melpominee, Presence
Tier 2: Auspex, Obfuscate
Tier 3: Chimerstry, Dementation, Dominate, Protean

I'd put Obfuscate at Tier 1, since you can just run with all titled vampires and Obfuscate stealth cards and zero "push", and win. I'd also put Protean at Tier 2, since Gangrel Royalty has been a staple since Dark Sovereigns and a few of the newer cards further support it.

Jeff wrote:

DELIVERY (Tactic #3):
Tier 1: Chimerstry, Dementation, Mytherceria, Obeah, Obfuscate, Obtenebration, Protean
Tier 2: Daimoinon, Necromancy, Vicissitude
Tier 3: Dominate, Quietus, Serpentis

Respectfully, I think this entire category is moot. Delivery...of what? If it's bleed, votes, or combat, then it doesn't belong in this category. And other than a very, very few trick decks, I'd submit that *everything* from this category is one of the three I listed.

Jeff wrote:

RESTRAINT (Tactic #4):
Tier 1: Auspex, Spiritus
Tier 2: Abombwe, Animalism
Tier 3: Obtenebration, Protean, Quietus

MULTI-ACT/REACT (Tactic #5):
Tier 1: Fortitude, Temporis
Tier 2: Animalism, Auspex, Celerity, Presence, Protean, Serpentis
Tier 3: Abombwe, Celerity, Presence, Quietus, Sanguinus
(Presence and Protean only got Tier 2 because of Mind Numb and Dual Form, respectively. Combat cards are not enough.)

COMBAT (Tactic #6):
Tier 1: Animalism, Celerity, Daimonion, Fortitude, Necromancy, Obeah, Potence, Presence, Protean, Thaumaturgy, Vicissitude
Tier 2: Abombwe, Chimerstry, Obtenebration, Quietus, Thanatosis, Valeren, Visceratika
Tier 3: Auspex, Dementation, Dominate, Melpominee, Mytherceria, Obfuscate, Sanguinus, Serpentis, Spiritus

I agree with all of these.

KevinM wrote:

I'd put Quietus at Tier 2, since a single card -- Loss -- plus the inherent, almost obligatory, synthesis of quietus and obfuscate now make it a serious threat in the mind of players. In addition, Loss **all by itself** is almost better than those other four Tier 3 disciplines for bleeding.

Quietus was left at Tier 3 because Loss is an action, not a modifier, and requires superior . While you are correct about the synergy with in-clan Obfuscate, I tried to discount any such synergy when coming up with the tiers for each of the six tactics. I considered Obfuscate "Delivery" though Old Friends qualifies them for a mention on both bleed and politics.

My larger goal was to try and somehow weight the six tactics and tiers and devise some objective metric to weight clan strength based purely on disciplines. The same could then be done for Sects, Clan, and Trait cards. It would be interesting to see the result.

I'd put Obfuscate at Tier 1, since you can just run with all titled vampires and Obfuscate stealth cards and zero "push", and win. I'd also put Protean at Tier 2, since Gangrel Royalty has been a staple since Dark Sovereigns and a few of the newer cards further support it.

Again, your assessment is correct when considering synergy with other disciplines, but by themselves, I don't think Obfuscate or Protean should have their tier changed. If Clans were ranked by Tier with respect to voting, Gangrel would be Tier 2 because of their previous Camarilla affilation.

Respectfully, I think this entire category is moot. Delivery...of what?

Delivery of "payload" which to me is any action which can cause direct pool damage to one's prey *in and of itself*.

Drawing in the other thread a bit, rush combat is *not* delivery, except in cases of synergy with another card like Fame or Tension in the Ranks. That's why combat is #6 on the list of tactics...it is incidental to winning the game. If you focus on it, you will undoubtedly create shortcomings in more important areas of the game and increase your chances of losing.

I think the topic has gone far astray from the original question. Arguing if Potence is a tier 1 or tier 2 combat discipline doesn't help that much in analyzing why certain clans are strong or not, imho.

So what makes a clan strong or not?

1. A strong combination of disciplines.
   
   A couple of individually strong disciplines are not enough, you need a combination of at least two strong disciplines (e.g. Obtenebration as delivery and Dominate as payload for the Lasombra).
   
   A strong clan needs access to
   • a strong payload discipline
   • a strong delivery discipline
   • a disciplines for handling defense (bleed defense being the most important).
   
   Auspex, Potence, Celerity may sound good on paper, but compared to Dominate, Fortitude, Presence, it's just weak.


2. A strong set of vampires from two consecutive groups.
   
   What makes such a set of vampires strong? Good discipline spread, good special abilities and access to titles (two votes or more).
   
   When a strong discipline combination is missing, this can be offset by a strong crypt selection. Look at the Nosferatu G1/2 or G2/3 for example. Ani/Obf/Pot isn't the strongest combination of disciplines, but they have an abundance of rather cheap Princes and Justicars vampires, often with amazing special abilities (e.g. Nikolaus Vermeulen, Casino Reeds, Cock Robin). When looking at the disciplines the Nosferatu antitribu are appear to somewhat better with regards to having superior disciplines, but the titles make the difference here.
   
   In this thread it was argued that Gangrel antitribu are indeed a strong clan since they have a large number of very good vampires. For example Una, Akysinya, Sebastian Goulet and Enkidu, but look at the decks in which they're used. These are usually star vampire decks, and decks based on different vampires of Gangrel antitribu are rather rare.


3. A couple of strong clan based masters.
   
   Another example for the Gangrel vs. the Gangrel antitribu. The Gangrel have Eco Terrorists, Backways and Renegade Garou, Twisted Forest, Shadowcourt Satyr and Bay & Howl. Twisted Forest and Backways are identical in terms of usage and cost. But Renegade Garou, while more expensive is the better ally since he deal with threats offensively, while Shadowcourt Satyr is more defensively orientated and has problems when 2+ stealth is involved. But the real difference here is Eco Terrorists vs. Bay & Howl. Eco Terrorists is way stronger than Bay & Howl, because it's generating new pool every turn, whereas Bay & Howl redistributes the blood one time.


4. A couple of strong sect based masters
   Sadly this one of the bigger imbalances in the game. The Camarilla is just so dominant in this area with just two cards, Parity Shift
   
   But this is the reason why for example the Nosferatu antitribu are so much weaker than the Nosferatu. The Nosferatu antitribu also have some reasonably priced vampires with titles, but these lack the proper backup by sect cards.
   
   Also, when looking at the Laibon you see a number of strong sect based cards, i.e. Strange Day, Mbara Market, Kduva's Mask, etc., not as strong as the Camarilla's, but still way better than those of the Sabbat or the Independent.

But when looking at these criteria, you have to see the whole package, not just the individual criteria. And in sum you can easily see for why the Nosferatu, Also the above statements and examples only give brief overview of what a clan makes strong. Other things to consider are looking at individual groups more closely or examining discipline distribution more closely.

Also the perspective if a clan is considered to be strong to changes over time as well. Either by introducing new cards or by players introducing new concepts or strategies for example.

Two examples for this are the Guruhi and the Ventrue antitribu. The Guruhi got strong when Michael Heyder proved with his NAC win that the clan is viable tournament choice, and later on when the Nana+Ashur tech was perfected sometime after KoT was introduced, which also brought Deep Song. I remember a long time ago in the VtES Usenet Newsgroup players discussing how weak the Ventrue antitribu were and how hard it is scoring wins with it. For example in this thread a bewildered player asks for help. Then Hugh came around and started playing the Grinder/Stickmen deck and won a couple of tournaments with it in 2009 and the following years. Other players also tried that deck and it became a popular deck archetype at tournaments. Problem solved for the Ventrue antitribu.

extrala wrote:

1. A strong combination of disciplines.
   
   A couple of individually strong disciplines are not enough, you need a combination of at least two strong disciplines (e.g. Obtenebration as delivery and Dominate as payload for the Lasombra).

An individually strong discipline usually isn't enough, but it can be.

Case in point is the True Brujah, many decks of which are essentially mono-discipline. Similarly, people would likely still play the Salubri for Obeah (Renewed Vigor, Spirit Marionette, Repulsion) regardless of what the Salubri's other two clan disciplines were.

When a strong discipline combination is missing, this can be offset by a strong crypt selection. Look at the Nosferatu G1/2 or G2/3 for example. Ani/Obf/Pot isn't the strongest combination of disciplines, but they have an abundance of rather cheap Princes and Justicars vampires, often with amazing special abilities (e.g. Nikolaus Vermeulen, Casino Reeds, Cock Robin).

Well, Casino Reeds and Cock Robin aren't exactly cheap! But yes, they also have 5-cap Calebros, 7-caps Nikolaus (who you mentioned) & Murat, and 9-cap Sheldon who was the smallest of the original Justicars.

In this thread it was argued that Gangrel antitribu are indeed a strong clan since they have a large number of very good vampires. For example Una, Akysinya, Sebastian Goulet and Enkidu, but look at the decks in which they're used. These are usually star vampire decks, and decks based on different vampires of Gangrel antitribu are rather rare.

It would be important to know whether:

A. People are building star vampire decks, because playing that star vampire with that clan just wouldn't work out

OR

B. People are building star vampire decks because it is the strongest option. They could play the star vampire with other members of the clan and it would do well, but they're just optimizing their deck choice.

So in one case, there is minimal synergy between that star vampire and their clan. In the other case, they could work together quite well, it's just that it's a "second best" deck choice. For example, someone just posted a winning deck in Serbia using 3 copies of Aksinya along with other !Gangrel.

A couple of strong sect based masters
Sadly this one of the bigger imbalances in the game. The Camarilla is just so dominant in this area with just two cards, Parity Shift

But this is the reason why for example the Nosferatu antitribu are so much weaker than the Nosferatu. The Nosferatu antitribu also have some reasonably priced vampires with titles, but these lack the proper backup by sect cards.

Also, when looking at the Laibon you see a number of strong sect based cards, i.e. Strange Day, Mbara Market, Kduva's Mask, etc., not as strong as the Camarilla's, but still way better than those of the Sabbat or the Independent.

Yes, the Camarilla benefits disproportionately from Parity Shift and Second Tradition. (Though besides those cards, they have very little to offer. And the *sect* is actually easily the weakest if you don't have a title).

I agree that overall the Sabbat is weaker than the Camarilla. But I'm continually confounded by people who don't appreciate the many strong Sabbat cards out there:

[Strong cards]

Abbot
Black Forest Base
Dia de los Muertos
The Hungry Coyote
Powerbase: Madrid
Yawp Court

[Useful cards]

Admonitions, The
Capitalist
Cardinal Benediction
Church of the Order of St. Blaise
Danse Macabre
Festivo dello Estinto
Notorious Brutality
Pentex Loves You!
Powerbase: Barranquilla
Regent
Zillah's Tears

Plus Black Hand / Seraph cards:

[Strong cards]

Drop Point Network
Guarded Rubrics
Marijava Thuggee
Ministry
Reunion Kamut
Seraph's Second
Tattoo Signal

[Useful cards]

Art of Memory
Black Hand Ritual
Truth In Ink
Watchtowers

Also the perspective if a clan is considered to be strong to changes over time as well. Either by introducing new cards or by players introducing new concepts or strategies for example.

Agreed.

I think the surge in popularity for the !Ventrue and the !Tremere has been largely influenced by the new Group 4 crypt options that came out with Third Edition. For the !Tremere there was a notable turning point starting in 2007 (Third Edition being released near the end of 2006). For the !Ventrue it took a year longer (big jump starting in 2008).

If you look at winning !Ventrue and !Tremere decks, they are skewed heavily in favor of Group 4 over Group 2. Both clans got the short end of the stick when it came to Sabbat costing (both clans have "4 for 5" vampires though at least Kurt gets a superior). Several of the big !Ventrue suffer from Justicar's Disease () like Kyle and Gustav and several of their mid-caps lack superiors (Vincent and Dylan). The !Tremere aren't *horrible* but are overcosted, even when compared to other vampires from that set. Bryan van Duesen (vs. Quira, Sela, and Sheila), Kij (vs. Korah, Gratiano, and Meshenka), Ayelea (vs. Lambach, Hannibal, and maybe Angelica), and Ethan (who isn't really worth playing. In fact, Marino Reymundo Vasquez is far better than Ethan in most cases, and even he doesn't make the cut for most !Tremere decks).

So it's not that surprising that a lot of players were eager to shift to Group 4 when Third Edition came out.

I'm *not* saying that Group 2 is a waste for the !Ventrue and the !Tremere. There still are some decks that are best optimized using the Group 2 crypt. But Group 4 is generally better (and understandably more popular).

extrala wrote:

A strong clan needs access to

• a strong payload discipline
• a strong delivery discipline
• a disciplines for handling defense (bleed defense being the most important).

I agree with this. And I will point out for emphasis that nothing here mentions combat. Ability to handle combat is incidental to winning.