Path of Bones, Harbingers card

Louhi wrote:

Enablers are fun, hosers are not. If you really need to there's already dominate counters a plenty.

It's wrong on two account.

The first one is, there is not a lot of thing that can be done against reactions especially. What exactly can you do against redirection ? Approximation of loyalty, Touch of clarity, I am legion, and maybe two or three pretty bad cards. And against Obedience ? Nothing, except being older or waiting your prey/predator run out of thoses.

The second is, thoses cards are actually enablers. They avoid people cancelling your every offensive action without any interactions.

People don't see Psyche and Immortal grapple as hosers. The reyda proposition is the same.

(of course, the anti-Action modifer tend to be a bit more of a hoser. But you will never convince me that dominate will be too weak if you can cancel conditionning or bonding)

Milling should be disruption for what HoS decks aim to actually accomplish. They need petmanent strong stuff likean Atonent so they wall good.

I feel disruption and good walling to make up for no dominate could make them work. Even if some hoser tech like callirus's special and better than threading the path of orpheous is nreded to make them pop. They should be supported better. Thats just kinda a fact.

Ohlmann wrote:

Louhi wrote:

Enablers are fun, hosers are not. If you really need to there's already dominate counters a plenty.

It's wrong on two account.

The first one is, there is not a lot of thing that can be done against reactions especially. What exactly can you do against redirection ? Approximation of loyalty, Touch of clarity, I am legion, and maybe two or three pretty bad cards. And against Obedience ? Nothing, except being older or waiting your prey/predator run out of thoses.

The second is, thoses cards are actually enablers. They avoid people cancelling your every offensive action without any interactions.

People don't see Psyche and Immortal grapple as hosers. The reyda proposition is the same.

(of course, the anti-Action modifer tend to be a bit more of a hoser. But you will never convince me that dominate will be too weak if you can cancel conditionning or bonding)

That's true, but do we really need another? We already have
Resilient Mind
Blessing of Chaos
Perfect Clarity
Touch of Clarity
Purification
Iron Heart
React with Conviction
Lobotomy
Orb of Ulain
True Faith
and maybe I forgot some, that are all counters to dominate in specific. This one would even uniquely be against ONLY dominate while the rest at least also affect one or more other discipline as well. Approximation and other cards exist too but they are against any reaction card.

You need to get around S:CE when you play combat which is why psyche! and immortal grapple serve a function, but which archetype (playable by harbingers) need to counter Dominate in specific to not break down?

Also, is that what would make the harbingers (infamous for lack of payload) more viable? They already have AUS for the defence so the reactive part of it is redundant.

They also need some reasonably credible go forward. Pulse of the Canaille is nice and all, but a LOT of Necromancy costs. So it makes them less likely to actually deliver that higher payload.

They need either:
Cheap payload increase
Cheap payload delivery
Cards that won't suddenly put the Gios onto nutso steroids.

It was interesting to see Blessed Resilience. It gives me the idea that at some point, Harbingers were supposed to be making Force of Will decks left, right and center... But you can only get one of them back a turn, so you're only looking at 1x 3-bleed a turn.

Path from Beyond the Shroud
Master.
Harbingers of Skulls
Put this card in play. Harbingers of Skulls may take a action costing 2 blood to move a Harbingers of Skulls from an ashheap to your ready region. Any Wraith may remove a vampire in any ashheap as a action. Burn this card if there are no controlled Harbingers of Skulls.

Louhi wrote:

Resilient Mind
Blessing of Chaos
...
Purification
Iron Heart
React with Conviction
Lobotomy
Orb of Ulain
True Faith

You have added a lot of joke card in the lot, which make you hard to take seriously.

But even past this, it's not like Dominate is not by far the most efficient discipline in the game, and one often splashed on clan that usually don't have it (see eurobrujah for the most notable example). If anything, it seem there is not enough.

By the way, a lot of thoses cards cancel only actions directed on minions. Which mean, Mind rape, since there is no other non underpowered actions directed at vampires in dominate. (well, except maybe Command the legion)

Louhi wrote:

You need to get around S:CE when you play combat which is why psyche! and immortal grapple serve a function, but which archetype (playable by harbingers) need to counter Dominate in specific to not break down?

How exactly do an Harbinger oust without bleeding ? They don't have anything to get past redirection, which mean despite the ability to bleed for 2-6 per turn once installed a prey with 15 deflection

It's the same thing as S:CE. You NEED a way to get past deflections to actually oust someone which play deflections. Harbinger are too big to swarm, does not bleed for enough to allow most of their actions to fail, and cannot do politics because of lore reason and lack of titles.

Louhi wrote:

Also, is that what would make the harbingers (infamous for lack of payload) more viable? They already have AUS for the defence so the reactive part of it is redundant.

Well, the reactive part is not the main advantage, as you say it. The big advantage is to actually make the not-too-efficient oust action of the harbinger significantly harder to counter. Telepathic misdirection will work, but it's significantly less good than the dominate version, and block mean combat which is not the weakest point of Harbinger anyway.

Of course, it may not be enough by itself. But adding something which is a good nod to lore, pretty useful against the weakest point of the clan, and that nerf the most powerful discipline of the game seem pretty spot on.

True faith is the punchline of joke cards. I once had a Holy Cock deck with cock robin and crusader sword. I digress.

Harbingers need a solid half dozen support cards to be on par iwth giovanni. They need an answer to sce, enhanced attrtion combat tactics, and multi block tech. Im not saying there needs to be no secrets, armor of caines fury, and oliver thrace text as hos cards, but they need more than a combo with FoW to have oomph. If thats all it took, indy gargoyles with AofTerra and concordance nergal would be viable.

So, what helps them the most?