Path of Bones, Harbingers card

They already have Telepathic Tracking as anti s:ce

True. But just like death seeker, it costs blood. Its not impossible to taste some, but with attrition combat, blood costs add up. Even some permanent asguresh\watenda special with an atonement sort of action would be enormous.

Ohlmann wrote:

Louhi wrote:

Resilient Mind
Blessing of Chaos
...
Purification
Iron Heart
React with Conviction
Lobotomy
Orb of Ulain
True Faith

You have added a lot of joke card in the lot, which make you hard to take seriously.

It was meant more as a display of the number of cards tailored against dominate already. Lots of them are bad and unplayed, we both know that. Nonetheless adding yet another dominate hoser doesn't feel very innovative.

Ohlmann wrote:

But even past this, it's not like Dominate is not by far the most efficient discipline in the game, and one often splashed on clan that usually don't have it (see eurobrujah for the most notable example). If anything, it seem there is not enough.

By the way, a lot of thoses cards cancel only actions directed on minions. Which mean, Mind rape, since there is no other non underpowered actions directed at vampires in dominate. (well, except maybe Command the legion)

Louhi wrote:

You need to get around S:CE when you play combat which is why psyche! and immortal grapple serve a function, but which archetype (playable by harbingers) need to counter Dominate in specific to not break down?

How exactly do an Harbinger oust without bleeding ? They don't have anything to get past redirection, which mean despite the ability to bleed for 2-6 per turn once installed a prey with 15 deflection

It's the same thing as S:CE. You NEED a way to get past deflections to actually oust someone which play deflections. Harbinger are too big to swarm, does not bleed for enough to allow most of their actions to fail, and cannot do politics because of lore reason and lack of titles.

I'd argue that you don't really need something to get around bounce in particular, you play around it instead. Is every bleed deck in your meta packing tons of touch of clarity/perfect clarity or something similar to combat presumed 15 deflection preys?

Ohlmann wrote:

Louhi wrote:

Also, is that what would make the harbingers (infamous for lack of payload) more viable? They already have AUS for the defence so the reactive part of it is redundant.

Well, the reactive part is not the main advantage, as you say it. The big advantage is to actually make the not-too-efficient oust action of the harbinger significantly harder to counter. Telepathic misdirection will work, but it's significantly less good than the dominate version, and block mean combat which is not the weakest point of Harbinger anyway.

Sorry for derailing a little but that is very dependent on meta. In my current meta people pack so much anarch troublemaker/misdirection/mind numb and other shenanigans that you more or less always need a wake to be able to bounce. In that case telepathic is way superior since it can be used as intercept and is not a dead card in a heads up.

Ohlmann wrote:

Of course, it may not be enough by itself. But adding something which is a good nod to lore, pretty useful against the weakest point of the clan, and that nerf the most powerful discipline of the game seem pretty spot on.

It's not a terrible idea but more or less a clone of touch of clarity without the presence hosing but given as a clan card to a clan that can't bleed. I don't feel it's what's needed personally.

Louhi wrote:

I'd argue that you don't really need something to get around bounce in particular, you play around it instead. Is every bleed deck in your meta packing tons of touch of clarity/perfect clarity or something similar to combat presumed 15 deflection preys?

When I play, say, Dementation bleed, the idea is that if 75% of my bleed get deflected, the remaining one are big enough to oust or put someone in a tight enough spot. (I don't actually own any touch of clarity )

When I play Palla Grande, I have enough bleed action to hope my prey run out of them.

None of thoses are an options for Harbinger, because they are relatively big (they begin at 5 cap), and they don't bleed for a lot. You may do a deck that have a permanent bleeder for 4 and another one for 2 each turn, so if you prey put himself at 10 pool and have a reasonable number of redirection (and wake, of course), you will take way too much time to actually bleed him out, easily 6 or 10 turns.

That's why that kind of card is a lot more needed for Harbinger (and any clan with no in-clan bleed action or bleed modifier) than for others clans.

(by the way, I don't understand why wake would get in the way of playing a redirection. even with Eluding the arm of orpheus, you can just let the block fail and then redirect, instead of playing as intercept, no ?)

Ohlmann wrote:

(by the way, I don't understand why wake would get in the way of playing a redirection. even with Eluding the arm of orpheus, you can just let the block fail and then redirect, instead of playing as intercept, no ?)

Of course, if a card forces you to block (like Eluding the Arms does) and you have sufficient intercept, you have to block. But if you can't block because of insufficient int then of course you can bounce.

Ohlmann wrote:

(by the way, I don't understand why wake would get in the way of playing a redirection. even with Eluding the arm of orpheus, you can just let the block fail and then redirect, instead of playing as intercept, no ?)

It was a bit sloppy quoting on my behalf, it was just a short derail about AUS vs DOM as bounce disciplines. Deflection is often seen as superior since it can allow you to stay untapped, but in my meta that benefit often gets taken away.

Anyway, to sum up a little. I don't think the card is what Harbingers would need and it's a little boring to see yet another 'cancel dominate something', granted many don't see play as it is anyway. Giving them some sort of payload is more crucial or even just solidifying other roles, like wall capabilities (which they do have some good decks with already).