Nosferatu - Give them some love...

elotar wrote:

Actually IMO there are too much combat in the present VtES.

As I understand aggressive decks are only used for additional VP to pass finals/day 2 threshold - to win you should play some type of combat.

It's IMO very bad for the game, especially on casual level.

To even begin the discussion we will just have to agree to that combat is a part of VtES just as much as bleeding and voting are. This has been reinforced in the current publisher's latest designs. Just to get this straight - this has nothing to do with Nosferatu's power level per se.

Now, if (and hopefully as) we agree that it's a strategy as well as any other, it is only one possible venue where Nosferatu could be improved on. I would not argue that it is THE one however. There are the other fields as well.

Combat would even be a pretty boring and too obvious route for Nossies. There are other clans more fit for it. Nosferatu's main plot strengths and flavor are the ones missing at the moment. Let other clans do the fighting. Nosferatu can hold their own in fights. They do not need to be the best at it.

Lots of good ideas floating around with them here. None will make it to the V5 set of course. I'm really looking forward to what they'll cook up for them. Here's hoping the spoilers will start dropping soon!

Kraus wrote:

To even begin the discussion we will just have to agree to that combat is a part of VtES just as much as bleeding and voting are.

Obviously - no. Combat should be compared with hunting or stealth, having it as a dedicated strategy is total misunderstanding of the VtES intent.

It concern Nosferatu in a way that they got 2 combat disciplines and one for stealth. So you cannot avoid discussing combat when speaking about them.

elotar wrote:

Kraus wrote:

To even begin the discussion we will just have to agree to that combat is a part of VtES just as much as bleeding and voting are.

Obviously - no. Combat should be compared with hunting or stealth, having it as a dedicated strategy is total misunderstanding of the VtES intent.

There is a misunderstanding here. I am talking about the current card pool and what can at the moment be done with the cards. Hunting or Stealth are not ousting mechanisms within the current card pool. Thanks to Fame and Tension in the Ranks combat just happens to be an ousting mechanism. This is not an opinion, but a fact.

It concern Nosferatu in a way that they got 2 combat disciplines and one for stealth. So you cannot avoid discussing combat when speaking about them.

Nor am I trying to avoid it. Combat is one of their better options at the moment.

That being said, I would definitely rather see some new cards not revolving around combat for them, as I said, instead of new combat tools. They can already do okay combat.

Just now a tournament final in Bielsko-Biala had two G1-2 Nosferatu Royalty decks, one of them a breed-boon variant I heard. So they can still be viable. I still fail to see what they do better than a Ravnos breed version. Maybe the tournament report from that tournament will shed some light on that.

Combat is not only ousting mechanism, but there are card for benefiting from combat too (gain blood, gain pool, gain blood on uncontrolled vampire, gain permanent bonuses).

It's just safe to assume that Elotar is biased against combat for some reason.

elotar wrote:

Kraus wrote:

To even begin the discussion we will just have to agree to that combat is a part of VtES just as much as bleeding and voting are.

Obviously - no. Combat should be compared with hunting or stealth, having it as a dedicated strategy is total misunderstanding of the VtES intent.

I've personally assumed the intent for VTES was to bring enjoyable and accurate representation of the World of Darkness (old World of Darkness back in the 90's) to cardgame format. Jyhad is the fight for dominance between the antediluvians (mostly the third generation of Cainites) and the notable methuselah (fourth and fifth gen of Cainites) who have reached enough influence to pull the strings. Now VTES follows "rule of cool" to have some of the antediluvians as cards (Saulot) and quite lot of methuselah as well (Kemintiri, Enkidu, Ur-Shulgi, Nergal, Mary The Black, Menele, Augustus Giovanni etc etc.) I feel this is to mimic how methuselah themself are not outside the game and can be drawn in and out as pawns by others when seen fit.

If one looks at how the struggle between the kindred has been over the years, there are spurs of notable violence in scale outside of two vampires duking it out in the alley. Those moments are quite combat heavy, the Baali war in the ancient times were not exactly who gets to control powerbase in Washington DC and rely on Elysium: The Arboretum to safely harbor them but who gets eradicated as a clan. Second one brought unity among the thirteen yet again against the infernalists and birthed some of the most violent legends (Ur-Shulgi says hello). First anarch revolt thousands years later, during the inquisition was also conflict heavy, the later stages mentioned as a war with gains and losses akin to it. Naturally the players of the Jyhad either fostered or manipulated the conflict to get their ends, I'm sure the Ventrue player raged as they didn't cycle "rolling with the punches" from their deck when Tyler rushed Hardestadt the Elder and managed to play disarm followed with Amaranth on him. Treaty of Tyre between Assamites and Camarilla wasn't over who influences masses/mortals best but over the collective blood hunt on the clan and what caused it(assamite player free rushing with amaranth ahoy while the rest of the table decide it's time to stop them). Modern nights with elders being downed left and right due to various situations is no exception, Caine was after all the first murderer and the progeny follows in cursed steps. Theirs is not the peaceful and violentless existence where pawns are moved in the board and necessary executions are performed in humane fashion. Beast is their companion that draws them to act like it, flee or fight response in their nature. It hasn't prevented them from trying, Path of the Scorched Heart came pretty close, until Carthago went down, not because their crop harvest failed, but because war came to visit. Was it just another game of Jyhad where True Brujah pacifistic combat end presence bleeder was ousted?

If VTES tries to bring it's source material to card game, to distill the "spirit" of what it is to be canite in World of Darkness, it has to distill the violence of the first murder as well. The Senseless nature of it, that destroys, is manipulated and can be roused and die just as easily with emotions. As our existence as humans is tied to the same dilemma (story of the first murder is after all "our" story, White Wolf just tweaked it) of violence and our fight with it (some succeeding more then others) it's natural we feel strongly over it. But to claim manipulating it to fit one's needs is misunderstanding VTES intent is a bold claim when lot of the source material and lore points to exact opposite. It can be argued whether or not such lore is "good writing", "logical storytelling" or just "handwaving" but it's still in the material that's being distilled. It can be argued whether or not it should be in the final product or whether there should be additional distillations until it no longer remains, or have it removed by rules, but that's why events exist and how play groups can make their own rules of say "only 10 combat cards in a deck".

Sorry for jumping out of topic, for topic consideration, I feel modern day Nosferatu and especially their antitribu could perhaps make do with clan loyalty based mechanics with "brood" in mind. Hidden lurker as obfuscate is good existing example where the "brood" comes to help it's members. Perhaps a clan requirement action modifirer that allows similar but with each locking vampire(requiring same card from each or allowing methuselah to lock x vampires, each adding a +1-2 max bleed/votes[perhaps separate cards]) turning nosferatu to breed and bleed/vote powerhouse clan. Sure they don't have dominate/presence, and rely on obfuscate bleeds, but let one through and there's possibility that the brood of embraces/third traditions hammering away at their keyboards turn massive damage to influence overnight.

In similar vein perhaps a card that forces their prey to pay (50/50 split, rounded up) cost on influence equipment to simulate falsified documents and highlight the adaptation to modern day tactics. Again, with clan tied card as opposed to discipline one. Proper thought has to be given as otherwise multi-acting, helicopter buying nosferatu brood will get out of hand, perhaps once per turn limit on such "you pay for my ride."

Same goes for animal retainers that nosferatu ghoulify, while it's nice to think Underbridge strays playing potence but current Ghouled action modifier specifically states "mortal ally". Perhaps a clan tied action enabling search (even from the ash heap to simulate how going to local shelter via sewer gets endless supply of strays) for animal ally that is then "ghouled" to guard the "brood." Lot of this theme is already in the animalism reactions, while it makes sense from discipline usage, it's away from making nosferatu unique as there's no way to "ghoul" a reaction card. Unless one makes that a clan only action "Ghoulify a Herd", with animalism reaction cards put into it similar Mokolé Blood.

I'm not currently tuned enough to the game to make accurate claims and pinpoint "what's the trouble for Nosferatu" but I feel each clan should follow their own themes and play to them as well. Hence the tight broods, ghouled guardian animals and clan loyalty over sect loyalty for Nosferatu is the key in my mind. I still smile when I pull out my g2/3 nosse "wall" that encourages prey not to block weenie 1-2 hacking/laptop bleeds with hidden lurkers. It's not a tournament deck, it's not even a powerful deck, but it's fun little thing like many other fun little things (I'm looking at you, Succubus Club Daughters of Cacophony cross table intercept/stealth/vote/blood merchant, 1 pool for 1, as requested in the future, honest).

Kraus wrote:

That being said, I would definitely rather see some new cards not revolving around combat for them...

This I support totally.

But I don't know how it can be done.

Obviously as they have stealth we need something synergetic with it in and
In it may be some powerful animal allies/retainers or something in the line of army of rats but more usable as a win condition (Army of Insects, no stealth, cost 2 blood but can be used in multiple copies and can't be removed), but what can be invented for for which you will need stealth and it should also be synergetic with what we have to ?