Crypt card redesign

BenPeal wrote:

666Raziel wrote:

I don't consider an entire line of text trivial.
But :
1) I don't think that the pattern I recommend waste an entire line. Sure, there's a line break. But since the global text box is longer, I don't think it will really matter.

Ok, at first I enjoyed arguing with you but now I wonder if you ever read my post before refuting them.
Maybe my english is terrible (and since it's not my native tongue, it might be) . In that case, I'm truly sorry.
Nevertheless I said many times that this current layout is not what I recommend.

So all of your illustration are right. But they are still irrelevant against my recommendation.


As for the True Brujah issue, I think that you are "fighting the wrong war". If you lack space, in crypt textbox, maybe the first problem is the text...
Ever thought of using a trait ? Like ... I don't know "Celerity Inaptitude". This would work just like Vulnerability but instead of being a source of aggravated damage, it will prevent the minion from having, playing or using those element.
Note that this could be extend to many things. Angelo would have "Retainer Inaptitude", Enkidu would have "Equipment Inaptitude", etc. (Just think of the amount of space gained on Beast card ! )

666Raziel wrote:

Ok, at first I enjoyed arguing with you but now I wonder if you ever read my post before refuting them.

So I read this:

I think you are nitpicking.
So far any version of Ke's layout is still more readable than the original card. And that goes for recent cards (like Appolonius ADV) as well.

And that's what I've been refuting. You also keep making comments that are dismissive of my design concerns, and I'm trying to make it abundantly clear to you that these problems are significant. It's not nitpicking, it's not being fearful of change, it's not being resistant to change, and it's not about needing to lighten up. They are issues that I've faced when designing cards every time I've worked on a set.

Maybe my english is terrible (and since it's not my native tongue, it might be) . In that case, I'm truly sorry.

No need to apologize. Your English is totally fine.

Nevertheless I said many times that this current layout is not what I recommend.

So all of your illustration are right. But they are still irrelevant against my recommendation.

Except for where you're still pushing for a second text box. The same issues apply.

As for the True Brujah issue, I think that you are "fighting the wrong war". If you lack space, in crypt textbox, maybe the first problem is the text...
Ever thought of using a trait ? Like ... I don't know "Celerity Inaptitude". This would work just like Vulnerability but instead of being a source of aggravated damage, it will prevent the minion from having, playing or using those element.

I've definitely thought of that. In particular, I've recommended to the rules team that we change "Cold Iron Vulnerability" to "Fae". However, I also think that "Cold Iron Vulnerability" and "Can't Use Celerity" should be eliminated from the game as not only have they contributed little of any significance, they've caused design problems by restricting text space. The empty space caused by the black text box results in an identical problem. Both should be eliminated.

BenPeal wrote:

If we're not going to have an icon for Black Hand (required for 28 cards), then we shouldn't have one for Flight (required for 9 cards).

Maybe the right way is to have icon for black hand?

In case there is a language barrier, here is how I wish this layout would be :

As I've said here we could pull the discipline up in order to enlarge the text box.
Also, the water-marked clan icon would deal with vampire without abilities.

BenPeal wrote:

666Raziel wrote:

Ok, at first I enjoyed arguing with you but now I wonder if you ever read my post before refuting them.

So I read this:

I think you are nitpicking.
So far any version of Ke's layout is still more readable than the original card. And that goes for recent cards (like Appolonius ADV) as well.

And that's what I've been refuting. You also keep making comments that are dismissive of my design concerns, and I'm trying to make it abundantly clear to you that these problems are significant. It's not nitpicking, it's not being fearful of change, it's not being resistant to change, and it's not about needing to lighten up. They are issues that I've faced when designing cards every time I've worked on a set.

Maybe my english is terrible (and since it's not my native tongue, it might be) . In that case, I'm truly sorry.

No need to apologize. Your English is totally fine.

Nevertheless I said many times that this current layout is not what I recommend.

So all of your illustration are right. But they are still irrelevant against my recommendation.

Except for where you're still pushing for a second text box. The same issues apply.

As for the True Brujah issue, I think that you are "fighting the wrong war". If you lack space, in crypt textbox, maybe the first problem is the text...
Ever thought of using a trait ? Like ... I don't know "Celerity Inaptitude". This would work just like Vulnerability but instead of being a source of aggravated damage, it will prevent the minion from having, playing or using those element.

I've definitely thought of that. In particular, I've recommended to the rules team that we change "Cold Iron Vulnerability" to "Fae". However, I also think that "Cold Iron Vulnerability" and "Can't Use Celerity" should be eliminated from the game as not only have they contributed little of any significance, they've caused design problems by restricting text space. The empty space caused by the black text box results in an identical problem. Both should be eliminated.

Ok I didn't saw your post before posting my last.
Maybe I made a poor choice of word when I said that you were nitpicking.

The thing is, that there will always be component that restrain the text box.
If I understand our two opinions correctly you want to optimize that space as much as possible. While I think that we should be satisfied by what we gained and allow ourself the "luxury" of making the traits more noticeable.


EDIT : about vulnerability and the True Brujah flaw, I wouldn't mind if there were gone.
That said, True Brujah are not the only one who cannot play a certain cardtype. So I think we should definitely find a way to shorten this "abilities".

Damnans wrote:

666Raziel wrote:

When I speak about clarity, it means that any player (new and old) can identify the nature of the text he's reading at first sight. (Understanding the meaning of it is something else.)

Normally, icons and images in general are faster ways than text to identify things.

As a somewhat new player, I would like to point out that if the number of different icons grows very large, it becomes counterproductive as new players will have difficulty remembering what each icon means (particularly the rare ones). It took me better part of the year to remember different clan symbols when I started out, and I might still mistake a Kiasyd symbol for a Harbinger of skulls for example, or not remember the exotic discipline symbols.

Whereas text is always explicit and cannot be mistaken. I'm sure some sort of compromise could be reached though, with the common stuff having icons and the most exotic ones not?