State of the V:EKN - October 2013
28 Oct 2013 05:42 #55792
by fredsct
First of all we're not debating "rating" system. The VEKN ranking system doesn't rate at all. It just awards points for various feats (and then takes them away some number of months later). The points are awarded for skillful feats, it's true, but no attempt is made to correct for things like quality of competition. We said all these things 10 years ago, Johannes. You already know them.
Anyway, are you seriously questioning why fairness is important to the qualifying system or just my motivations personally? If the former, its that the idea of reserving things like 2nd day spots for a privileged group of players who will have the inside track on obtaining them will tend to discourage the other players over time and decrease, not increase participation. The latter is not a relavent to the point I'm making - which is the same whether I make it or anyone else does.
Replied by fredsct on topic Re: State of the V:EKN - October 2013
There is no way to design a fair rating system involving people that have a hard time playing tournaments because of circumstances. A rating system will describe who are the best performing players within an active tournament scene. People outside of that scene are not going to be high in the ranking, but how does it matter if everything that is given out is qualification to participate in international events? Does it matter to you that you don´t qualify for Legendary Vampire if you can´t go anyway?
First of all we're not debating "rating" system. The VEKN ranking system doesn't rate at all. It just awards points for various feats (and then takes them away some number of months later). The points are awarded for skillful feats, it's true, but no attempt is made to correct for things like quality of competition. We said all these things 10 years ago, Johannes. You already know them.
Anyway, are you seriously questioning why fairness is important to the qualifying system or just my motivations personally? If the former, its that the idea of reserving things like 2nd day spots for a privileged group of players who will have the inside track on obtaining them will tend to discourage the other players over time and decrease, not increase participation. The latter is not a relavent to the point I'm making - which is the same whether I make it or anyone else does.
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28 Oct 2013 06:33 - 28 Oct 2013 06:36 #55793
by Kraus
I agree with the notion of the ratings not being really fair, though. Like, we were discussing the ratings a bit a few days ago, and it really struck me when my girlfriend asked if it's really fair or not; like, some people may have been super good back in the days and still some newcomers couldn't compete with those feats from years ago. And if you started winnin tournaments years ago some newbs, no matter how good players, might never reach the top.
I really couldn't argue those points, other than saying that it's a flawed system, should always be used within a narrow horizon of discourse rather than a wide one (as in, 'who's the best IN TOWN', rather than 'who's [just] the best'), and yeah, they did discuss nulling all the ratings a few years back.
What we were thinking was that there could be, like, three different kinds of ladders:
Overall best ratings (history; worldwide; filters for areas)
Overall best average (history; worldwide; filters for areas; average tournament scorings for players, not just accumulated points)
This year's ratings (nulled every year [two years?], worldwide; filters for areas)
Really, loads of extra work, but different statistics would be a bit more reasonable.
I don't know if I agree with Fred's rather aggressive tone of discussion (sorry mate, that's how it translates to me! ), but I do understand his point. If peeps have time and energy, the scorings could be re-evaluated.
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
Replied by Kraus on topic Re: State of the V:EKN - October 2013
Then again, you already can filter the player registery to show only players in a certain country/town/something. So this can be done already.
How about making the entire idea region based?
I like the idea. After all, the whole point of making the ranking more significant is giving tournament organizers more reasons to report their events.
I agree with the notion of the ratings not being really fair, though. Like, we were discussing the ratings a bit a few days ago, and it really struck me when my girlfriend asked if it's really fair or not; like, some people may have been super good back in the days and still some newcomers couldn't compete with those feats from years ago. And if you started winnin tournaments years ago some newbs, no matter how good players, might never reach the top.
I really couldn't argue those points, other than saying that it's a flawed system, should always be used within a narrow horizon of discourse rather than a wide one (as in, 'who's the best IN TOWN', rather than 'who's [just] the best'), and yeah, they did discuss nulling all the ratings a few years back.
What we were thinking was that there could be, like, three different kinds of ladders:
Overall best ratings (history; worldwide; filters for areas)
Overall best average (history; worldwide; filters for areas; average tournament scorings for players, not just accumulated points)
This year's ratings (nulled every year [two years?], worldwide; filters for areas)
Really, loads of extra work, but different statistics would be a bit more reasonable.
I don't know if I agree with Fred's rather aggressive tone of discussion (sorry mate, that's how it translates to me! ), but I do understand his point. If peeps have time and energy, the scorings could be re-evaluated.
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
Last edit: 28 Oct 2013 06:36 by Kraus.
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28 Oct 2013 06:53 #55794
by the1andonlime
Suaku
Inceptor Asian Continental Championship
興っ
www.youtube.com/SuakuOz
Replied by the1andonlime on topic Re: State of the V:EKN - October 2013
I have an amusing anecdote for this one:Overall best average (history; worldwide; filters for areas; average tournament scorings for players, not just accumulated points)
Few years back, Chris K. set up a ranking system for the ACT players in Australia. One fine day, my then girlfriend, now missus, came to visit me and joined in the weekly games. On her first ever outing for V:tES, she swept all 3 games she played in.
For months and months after that, before Chris decided to keep only recent data, she had the best average score in the entire ACT (100% GW).
Just sayin'
Suaku
Inceptor Asian Continental Championship
興っ
www.youtube.com/SuakuOz
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28 Oct 2013 08:40 - 28 Oct 2013 08:42 #55801
by Lönkka
So older history is already only hearsay...
Replied by Lönkka on topic Re: State of the V:EKN - October 2013
Peetu, you might not be aware that the ratings only take into account, like, 18 previous months of points.What we were thinking was that there could be, like, three different kinds of ladders:
Overall best ratings (history; worldwide; filters for areas)
Overall best average (history; worldwide; filters for areas; average tournament scorings for players, not just accumulated points)
This year's ratings (nulled every year [two years?], worldwide; filters for areas)
So older history is already only hearsay...
Finnish Politics!
Last edit: 28 Oct 2013 08:42 by Lönkka.
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28 Oct 2013 08:42 - 28 Oct 2013 08:42 #55802
by Lönkka
And when I reserved the ferry tickets to Team Finland for this year's EC we got a sports club discount which just proves that even mundanes think that we're sports...
Replied by Lönkka on topic Re: State of the V:EKN - October 2013
Actually, Chess is sports.This isn't sports, it's a hobby collectible card game named VtES and people don't behave the same way as famous athletes - so such comparisons are silly.
And when I reserved the ferry tickets to Team Finland for this year's EC we got a sports club discount which just proves that even mundanes think that we're sports...
Finnish Politics!
Last edit: 28 Oct 2013 08:42 by Lönkka.
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28 Oct 2013 09:10 #55805
by johannes
Yes, my argument for quality of competition was and is that this evens itself out over a numbre of events. Yes there could be theoretically still the odd situation where the same 15 people in a city do a tournament each week and everyone has 8 wins eventually, but I have yet to see one case like this surface into the top 10.
I was not talking about you personal motivations, no hard feelings I agree with you that we have to be careful about "rewards" from the ranking system. I still think there are valid rewards with a seemingly "unfair" (sounds so negative, let´s say sub-optimal) system. Like having a Legendary Vampire tournament. Or like awarding a small subset of 2nd day spots to the top X (small being <=10%). Card art portraits are probably the best option of all because this is a non-monetary value outside of the competition.
Replied by johannes on topic Re: State of the V:EKN - October 2013
First of all we're not debating "rating" system. The VEKN ranking system doesn't rate at all. It just awards points for various feats (and then takes them away some number of months later). The points are awarded for skillful feats, it's true, but no attempt is made to correct for things like quality of competition. We said all these things 10 years ago, Johannes. You already know them.
Yes, my argument for quality of competition was and is that this evens itself out over a numbre of events. Yes there could be theoretically still the odd situation where the same 15 people in a city do a tournament each week and everyone has 8 wins eventually, but I have yet to see one case like this surface into the top 10.
Anyway, are you seriously questioning why fairness is important to the qualifying system or just my motivations personally? If the former, its that the idea of reserving things like 2nd day spots for a privileged group of players who will have the inside track on obtaining them will tend to discourage the other players over time and decrease, not increase participation. The latter is not a relavent to the point I'm making - which is the same whether I make it or anyone else does.
I was not talking about you personal motivations, no hard feelings I agree with you that we have to be careful about "rewards" from the ranking system. I still think there are valid rewards with a seemingly "unfair" (sounds so negative, let´s say sub-optimal) system. Like having a Legendary Vampire tournament. Or like awarding a small subset of 2nd day spots to the top X (small being <=10%). Card art portraits are probably the best option of all because this is a non-monetary value outside of the competition.
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