Strikes at long range

Ankha wrote:

Game-wise, steal and move have exactly the same effect. The only difference is that usually steal is used when taking something from someone (meaning you change control of it), and move when it already belongs to you.

But you can use a 'steal effect' when there is no target (e.g. Theft of Vitae against an empty vampire) but in the past you have not been able to 'move' what is not there (e.g. I cannot take a "move equipment" action choosing a minion with no equipment). So there is an 'in game' difference between move and steal in the past.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

But you can use a 'steal effect' when there is no target (e.g. Theft of Vitae against an empty vampire)

In a Theft of Vitae situation (and therefore a Villein situation), the target is the card, not the counters on the card.

LSJ explains this quite concisely to some guy called Juggernaut1981 in [LSJ 20100216] :

LSJ wrote:

> You can target a villein on a minion who doesn't have the blood for
> you to take "at least 2" but you are forced to take "everything"?

Yes. Like being able to target a 1-blood vampire with Drain Essence.

> To be honest, why did that happen?

Consistency. Target the card.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

but in the past you have not been able to 'move' what is not there (e.g. I cannot take a "move equipment" action choosing a minion with no equipment). So there is an 'in game' difference between move and steal in the past.

True, you can't move what's not there. But you must have a legal target for playing the card.

When you play Theft, the target is the vampire (or ally, I guess), not the counters on the vampire. If the vampire were to disappear somehow, the strike would fizzle.

When you play Villein, the target is the vampire (not the counters on the vampire).

Ankha wrote:

As jamesatzephyr pointed it out, for instance this question has already been answered at [LSJ 20010630] and is covered by the rulebook 6.4.3 "Unless the strike is identified as ranged or does "R" damage (or is a defensive strike such as dodge or combat ends), it is only effective at close range"

What more could you wish for?

I would wish for a rulebook wording that doesn't leave so many questions unanswered. Problems I can see in the current wording:

1) I'm not clear whether the parenthetical text is actually part of this rule, or is a reminder of an implication of another part of the rules.

2) It leaves the behavior of a "defensive" strike with a side effect ambiguous. (The wording implies that a strike is entirely "effective" or entirely "not effective".)

3) The word "effective" could be replaced with something more clear.

Now, I do understand that a rulebook has to balance being easy to understand and being accurate in all cases. Sometimes a precise explanation that covers all possibilities is impenetrable to a new user. Here, though, I think we can do better without rendering the description incomprehensible.

For example, here's an alternative wording for that rulebook section, that matches the rules (as I understand them, which may not be correct), but that addresses my concerns:

Resolve Strike. The effects of the strikes from both minions are resolved simultaneously. Strikes resolve normally at close range. Some strikes are designated as "ranged", or indicate that they deal "R" damage; these strikes resolve the same way at close or long range. Otherwise, if range is long, ignore any effects a strike would have on the opposing minion (including on cards attached to that minion). For example, a hand strike does no damage at long range.

finbury wrote:

Resolve Strike. The effects of the strikes from both minions are resolved simultaneously. Strikes resolve normally at close range. Some strikes are designated as "ranged", or indicate that they deal "R" damage; these strikes function the same way at close or long range. Otherwise, if range is long, ignore any effects a strike would have on the opposing minion (including on cards attached to that minion). For example, a hand strike does no damage at long range.

I like your intention. The rulebook should be updated for content and clarity as needed.

However...

The effects of strikes are not resolved simultaneously. There are three possible strike resolution timing windows: Combat Ends, First Strike, and normal. (I take the term "normal" from rulings on cards such as Carrion Crows, Darkness Within, and Wolf Companion, whose effects resolve during the "normal" strike resolution window.)

How about:

Resolve Strike. The effects of strikes resolve in order according to their respective timing. Those strikes that occur during the same timing window resolve simultaneously.

Strikes resolve normally at close range. At long range, a strike has no effect on an opposing minion or cards attached to that minion unless the strike is designated as "ranged", or indicates that it deals "R" damage. Note that dodges affect the opposing minion's strike, not the minion itself.

The same is true for any card or effect that affects a minion during combat. Such effects, such as damage dealing retainers or cards dealing environmental damage, work normally at short range, but can only affect an opposing minion or cards attached to that minion at long range if the effect is designated as "ranged", or indicates that it deals "R" damage. Unless otherwise indicated, these effects resolve during normal strike resolution regardless of the timing of the strike declared by the minion controlling or playing them.
(Uh, I guess I think that this stuff about "effects" should be explicitly added to the rulebook if it's not there already. Maybe off topic there...)

I would add "(for example, strike that damage the opposing vampire, or steal blood from him, or send him in torpor, or add, move, or destroy card on him have no effect)" after the passage on long range strike having no effect and before the dodge one.

It's only examples, but I believe it will cover common misconception (you would be surprised by the number of people that think that coma work at a range)