Strikes at long range

Ohlmann wrote:

Is there a complete definition of "effect on the opposing minion" ?

I can't find a comprehensive one quickly. However, basically, a dodge will protect the dodger from any effects of the opponent's strike that directly affect:

• this dodging minion (e.g. Strike: hand damage, Strike: put this card on the opposing minion, Strike: steal 2 blood)
• cards on this minion that are not retainers (e.g. strike: steal weapon, strike: steal a discipline card)

Dodge won't protect a dodger's retainers.

Dodge won't "protect" the dodger from purely defensive effects taken by the opponent, such as Strike: Combat Ends, or Strike: prevent damage (Nightstick).

Dodge will protect the dodger from the "offensive" (that is, affecting the dodger or his non-retainer cards) side-effects of defensive strikes. For example, Catatonic Fear does damage as well as the Strike: Combat ends - Dodge won't prevent the combat ending, but it will protect against the damage. Ditto, Oubliette. Ditto (and this one surprises people), inferior Meld with the Land - the untap of the opposing (dodging) minion is offensive in that it directly affects the minion.

If the S:CE has other defensive side effects (that is, not directly affecting the dodger), the dodge doesn't affect those at all. e.g. Earth Meld, S:CE and untap the striking vampire. Dodge doesn't affect that at all.

Dodge will protect the dodger from the "offensive" (that is, affecting the dodger or his non-retainer cards) side-effects of defensive strikes. For example, Catatonic Fear does damage as well as the Strike: Combat ends - Dodge won't prevent the combat ending, but it will protect against the damage. Ditto, Oubliette. Ditto (and this one surprises people), inferior Meld with the Land - the untap of the opposing (dodging) minion is offensive in that it directly affects the minion.

This is one of those things that has been ruled both ways by LSJ. At one point it was possible to dodge the damage from Catatonic Fear and at another point it wasn't because "effects that happen outside combat cannot be affected by cards played in combat" or some other nonsense.

At another point, it was not possible to dodge the damage from catatonic fear, but it was possible to dodge the "putting on the card" from Holy Penance.

At this point in time I'm not even sure what the correct ruling is (I'm guessing from your post that you can dodge), but the point is, VTES has loads and loads of rulings and rules that are unclear (like this one), silly (Villein for less than 2) or counter-intuitive (the Nocturn one for example) and the VEKN should *really* start working on cleaning that mess.

Izaak wrote:

This is one of those things that has been ruled both ways by LSJ. At one point it was possible to dodge the damage from Catatonic Fear and at another point it wasn't because "effects that happen outside combat cannot be affected by cards played in combat" or some other nonsense.

Because, yes, applying the rules as they exist at the time is nonsense.

There were a couple of problems, not least of which was the fact that S:CE pre-empted dodge. In an earlier (non-current) incarnation of the rules, the order of strikes resolving was:

1) S:CE
2) S:Dodge
3) First strike
4) Normal strikes (and other 'during strike resolution' effects, like Wolf Companion)

In such a situation, Dodge hasn't resolved so can't do anything.


RTR 02-DEC-2004 overturned this by changing the rules.

RTR wrote:

Dodge protects the dodger against all strikes, even aggressive S:CE effects
(like Catatonic Fear).

Now, the situation is that - strictly speaking - Dodge is not regarded as resolving, it just applies against any and all strikes in the current strike resolution. However, if you prefer to think of it as resolving, it either resolves before or simultaneously with S:CE.

So, figuratively:

1) S:CE + S:Dodge
2) First Strike
3) Normal strikes etc.

I disagree, things are not messy as you depict it.

You don't think it's messy that we need page upon page upon pageof rulings and clarifications? That we need judges to constantly look stuff up on the web to make a proper ruling?

I think the rules are a complete mess and that there are simply too many card-interactions that create all sort of funny new time-windows. The rulebook has been getting (and still IS) updated ALL THE TIME just to make sure you can somehow rationalize seemingly arbitrary decisions.

I don't see what is unclear in this topic.

Oh, James' answer was quite elaborate, but maybe, since you played this game forever, you are ok with something simple as dodge requiring a 200 word explanation.

I don't see what is silly with Villein when you've played Theft of Vitae at superior against a vampire with 1 blood.

You don't think it's odd that "move" suddenly means the same as "steal"? You seem to be one of the few. I'm pretty sure if I move someone's wallet from a desk to a table, it's ok, but if I steal a wallet I'm a crimimal.

I don't see what is counter-intuitive with a Nocturn.

The fact that, according you your own post in a recent thread, you need to have a second Nocturn on hand to be able to play a Nocturn at superior even though nothing in either rules or cardtext implies such.

I don't remember a time where dodge would protect you from Unholy Penance but not from Catatonic Fear.

Unfortunately I can't find the relevant post on Usenet, but the jest of it was that because Catatonic Fear specifically deals damage after combat, a card played in combat (dodge) cannot possibly prevent it, similar to how if you play Skin of Steel superior on the first strike and the opposing minion additonal strikes with Catatonic Fear you still get the damage. Unholy Penance, however doesn't specify after combat so it could be dodged in combat. Through this all, there is also the Rotschrek template of Combat End. <do something> where the <do something> part can be foiled by Psyche!, which CANNOT be done with Catatonic Fear. Or can it nowadays??

How on earth are the rules clear and concise?

Izaak is somehow right on one topic : the rules are not perfectly clear. There is three main problem in fact :

* there is nothing like the pile rule in magic, or the actions segments in L5R. So, the timing interaction quickly become tricky (it's the problem with Catatonic fear and the stranges interactions with Psyche!)
* non-card, non-action thing you can do are not on the same template as reaction and action modifier card.
* The rule booklet does leave a lot of common play situation unsolved. For example, with only the rulebook you would have an hard time understanding that the effect of a card can be stopped in the middle by something like Psyche!, nor does it say anything on multiple range-setting ability (like Cailean vs Selective silence), and I suppose some other things are not directly in the booklet.

Now, let's not dramatize it too much. It's not YuGiOh here, and with a little time most problems are easy to solve.