Timing of "Kindred Spirits" under "The Rising"

Ankha wrote:

The unnamed effect triggers after the bleed action is successful: an "if...bleeds" trigger can only trigger once the action is over. It's not a replacement effect such as "if... would be ..."

Maybe it would be clearer if the unnamed's special was "After it successfully bleeds, you gain 2 pool." (which is the same, but maybe clearer).

Yes, Either that or:

Deciding that taking the edge only occurs after all the bleed action effects are resolved (no pool for KS ou Unnamed if Rising is on the Table)

Deciding that taking the edge is in the "resolving the action window" and the Methuselah can decide which effect he want to resolve first. If he get the edge first he can go for the pool.

As it is it doesn't make sense and its not consistent.

For KS: resolve the action first. Get the edge afterwards. Meaning you don't gain the pool if you don't have the Edge beforehand.

Whoa, hold your horses, KS pool gain has nothing to do with edge (by default)!

Ah, my bad, forgot that entirely

Ankha wrote:

Rule 6.1.1 says "Additionally, if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it, if any."

Notice the use of "if..." which is the same as for the unnamed, meaning you have to wait until the action is resolved to know if the action is successful, then get the edge. It means also that you may order the unnamed effect and gaining the Edge in any order since they trigger at the same time.

For KS: resolve the action first. Get the edge afterwards. Meaning you don't gain the pool if you don't have the Edge beforehand.

By definition, a bleed is not successful until a after bleed action is successful. From 6.1.1: "...if the action succeeds...then the bleed is successful". The use of the word "then" indicates that the effects are ordered.

That means that the pool gain from KS, Social Charm, Legal Manipulations, et al. does not occur until after the action itself is successful, by definition. Section 6.1.1 strongly implies that gaining the edge is an effect of a successful bleed action: "then the bleed is successful and the [player]...gets the Edge..." Those calling for pool gain to be possible with KS while the Rising is in play have a strong logical argument.

There are several action cards that have multiple, ordered effects that occur upon the action resolution, for example SchreckNET or The Portrait. There are action cards with effects that occur at and after resolution, such as Abactor. It is not logical to assume that all the effects of an action card must occur successively. By definition, the two parts of KS CANNOT happen concurrently. There is no inherent reason why the pool gain effect could not happen after some other effect that immediately succeeds a successful bleed action. It requires a ruling for that to be the rule, which we have. It is not a bad ruling, but it is not so self-evident that it couldn't be changed.

Edit/Another thought: The text of the rulebook can easily be understood to mean that getting the Edge must happen before the pool gain of KS: "...then the bleed is successful and the [player]...gets the Edge..." When two effects are linked by "and" in the text, and not "and then", we can understand that they occur simultaneously.