Timing of "Kindred Spirits" under "The Rising"
04 Feb 2013 06:59 #44808
by Ankha
Then (same emphasis as yours) you get the Edge if the bleed (not bleed action) was successful (> 0).
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Timing of "Kindred Spirits" under "The Rising"
Indeed, you must wait for the action to have resolved (=> it has been successful) to get the Edge. It's coherent with Sargon's behavior btw.
Rule 6.1.1 says "Additionally, if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it, if any."
Notice the use of "if..." which is the same as for the unnamed, meaning you have to wait until the action is resolved to know if the action is successful, then get the edge. It means also that you may order the unnamed effect and gaining the Edge in any order since they trigger at the same time.
For KS: resolve the action first. Get the edge afterwards. Meaning you don't gain the pool if you don't have the Edge beforehand.
By definition, a bleed is not successful until a after bleed action is successful. From 6.1.1: "...if the action succeeds...then the bleed is successful". The use of the word "then" indicates that the effects are ordered.
No. It's contradictory with what you said above. Gaining pool is part of the action. You gain pool when the action is resolved.That means that the pool gain from KS, Social Charm, Legal Manipulations, et al. does not occur until after the action itself is successful, by definition.
Then (same emphasis as yours) you get the Edge if the bleed (not bleed action) was successful (> 0).
No, it happens afterwards.Section 6.1.1 strongly implies that gaining the edge is an effect of a successful bleed action: "then the bleed is successful and the [player]...gets the Edge..."
Sure, but they are all part of the resolution of the action.There are several action cards that have multiple, ordered effects that occur upon the action resolution, for example SchreckNET or The Portrait. There are action cards with effects that occur at and after resolution, such as Abactor. It is not logical to assume that all the effects of an action card must occur successively.
No, you have to resolve the action first (under the current rules).By definition, the two parts of KS CANNOT happen concurrently. There is no inherent reason why the pool gain effect could not happen after some other effect that immediately succeeds a successful bleed action.
I'm not sure it would change anything. You still have to resolve the action first.Edit/Another thought: The text of the rulebook can easily be understood to mean that getting the Edge must happen before the pool gain of KS: "...then the bleed is successful and the [player]...gets the Edge..." When two effects are linked by "and" in the text, and not "and then", we can understand that they occur simultaneously.
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04 Feb 2013 07:13 #44809
by kombainas
Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.
Replied by kombainas on topic Re: Timing of "Kindred Spirits" under "The Rising"
I have to point out 2 things:
Both edge-gain and KS pool gain do not depend on action, but on bleed success. Since there is no priority of one benefit over the other, strictly speaking, you could reorder them as you like.
Rule 6.1.1 says "Additionally, if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it, if any."
Kindred Spirits
[Action] Action
[Dementation] Dementation
[dem]Bleed any Methuselah. Gain 1 pool if this bleed is successful (for 1 or more).
[DEM] As above, with +1 bleed.
Both edge-gain and KS pool gain do not depend on action, but on bleed success. Since there is no priority of one benefit over the other, strictly speaking, you could reorder them as you like.
Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.
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04 Feb 2013 08:59 #44810
by Ankha
This is not the case under the actual rule.
Floppy said he would add it to the review list, so let's wait for his final changes (if any).
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Timing of "Kindred Spirits" under "The Rising"
This is true only if you consider the gain pool part from KS being a kind of postponed effect that doesn't happen during the resolution of the action.I have to point out 2 things:
Rule 6.1.1 says "Additionally, if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it, if any."
Kindred Spirits
[Action] Action
[Dementation] Dementation
[dem]
[DEM] As above, with +1 bleed.
Both edge-gain and KS pool gain do not depend on action, but on bleed success. Since there is no priority of one benefit over the other, strictly speaking, you could reorder them as you like.
This is not the case under the actual rule.
Floppy said he would add it to the review list, so let's wait for his final changes (if any).
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