Elder Kindred Network and Vox Domini

In this situation, what would happen:

Methuselah A calls a vote.
Methuselah B plays Elder Kindred Network.
Players vote and the referendum is in favor by, say, 10 votes.
Methuselah B plays Vox Domini.

It seems to me that Methuselah A burns 11 pool in this situation. Is this correct? Elder Kindred Network says nothing by a positive or negative vote difference. Or is it the case that the referendum is regarded a tie until the votes have been tallied?


Vox Domini
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 1 pool
Master: out-of-turn.
Only usable during the referendum of a political action. Not usable on a referendum that is automatically passing. The referendum fails. Each Methuselah may play only one Vox Domini each game.

Elder Kindred Network
Cardtype: Reaction
Clan: Ventrue
Only usable during a referendum before any votes {or ballot} are cast.
If the referendum fails, the Methuselah calling the referendum burns 1 pool plus 1 additional pool for each vote difference.

going on card text as above, you seem to burn as much pool as the vote would have passed by. nasty....

Well, both Elder Kindred Network are not too efficient anti-vote tech. Vox Domini is once per game (per methuselah). So, while it does not seem to be intended, it's not very threatening.

Unless something changed votes aren't counted until the referendum is going to resolve. Vox Domini is played before this step is reached.

See Bribes and Delaying Tactics, no one except the person who plays Bribes gains pool from the Bribes card in that case.

"once per game" doesn't mean a card or effect can't be powerful. I mean, look at Week of Nightmares.

Here, I think it seems like this trick might be effective in the right deck, but I don't think it's gamebreaking. The ideal situation is something like a Ventrue deck that runs Anarch Revolts and/or Fee Stakes, and uses Elder Kindred Network as a threat to keep them in play. The "chilling effect" of nobody wanting to risk pool damage can be more useful than the actual pool damage, and in theory this effect can spike that pool damage.

Naive analysis says that if the Fee Stake's owner has N votes in play, any action that attempts to remove the Fee Stake must require N+1 votes, so if the owner of the Fee Stake turns around and votes for the referendum, and then plays EKN + Vox Domini, then that person will lose 2N+2 pool. For quite reasonable values of N, that's a pretty huge deal. But that's naive analysis. If people see this effect coming, it's a much smaller deal. Recall that EKN is played before votes are cast, so it's clear to everyone that something is going on. If people play cautiously, only announcing positive votes as they are needed to counter "against" votes, there's never a huge difference. And when the person who played EKN starts throwing their votes in favor of the referendum, the other players can start voting against.

The only really unpleasant thing about this trick is the "gotcha" effect. It could be a really nasty experience - once - for people who don't follow this forum. It seems like this is a clear case where the card's wording has an effect wildly different from the card designer's intent, and not just that... it's also a case where the impression you'd get from reading the card is dramatically different from its effect in play.

Consider this scenario. I'm playing a Ventrue/!Ventrue political deck and I have Black Forest Base in play. I say to my prey, "Hey! I could really use some pool here. Will you vote for my Black Forest Base action now if I vote for your Black Forest Base action on your turn?" Prey accepts, my BFB action and vote succeed, and when my prey starts their BFB referendum, I play EKN, saying "I want it out of my hand".

At this point, looking at the card, and not having read this thread, my prey would have to be REALLY canny to figure out that throwing all of her/his votes in favor would be a bad thing. Anywhere else in the game, winning by a landslide is not worse than winning by a single vote, and is sometimes better. There are cases where voting in favor can hurt - scalpel tongue might tap you, for example - but it's not common. And even reading EKN won't give you much of a hint. Then, suddenly, "BAM", there's the Vox Domini, there's the obscure ruling from the newsgroup, and there's your 14 pool damage.

(edit: I had posted this incomplete. Oops!)

finbury wrote:

At this point, looking at the card, and not having read this thread, my prey would have to be REALLY canny

Well, even if he have read the thread it won't help him that much.

Either he vote for the BFB, and you vote for then use vox dominici, or he vote against, and you don't even need the vox dominici.