Elder Kindred Network and Vox Domini
07 Mar 2012 09:06 - 07 Mar 2012 09:48 #25113
by Pascal Bertrand
Replied by Pascal Bertrand on topic Re: Elder Kindred Network and Vox Domini
Ah.. my message got deleted as I was sending it..
I was saying that maybe this change I proposed wasn't the best.
What about the following:
a - "If there are not more votes in favor of the referendum than against the referenum when results are tallied, the Methuselah calling the referendum burns 1 pool plus 1 additional pool for each vote difference."
b - "If the referendum fails, the acting Methuselah burns 1 pool per vote missing to have had the referendum succeed".
c - "If the referendum fails, the acting Methuselah gains 1 pool per vote in favor of the referendum, and burns 1 pool per vote against the referendum."
Notice that option c is missing some words to cover the answer given earlier.
I'm happier with option a.
I was saying that maybe this change I proposed wasn't the best.
What about the following:
a - "If there are not more votes in favor of the referendum than against the referenum when results are tallied, the Methuselah calling the referendum burns 1 pool plus 1 additional pool for each vote difference."
b - "If the referendum fails, the acting Methuselah burns 1 pool per vote missing to have had the referendum succeed".
c - "If the referendum fails, the acting Methuselah gains 1 pool per vote in favor of the referendum, and burns 1 pool per vote against the referendum."
Notice that option c is missing some words to cover the answer given earlier.
I'm happier with option a.
Last edit: 07 Mar 2012 09:48 by Pascal Bertrand.
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07 Mar 2012 10:17 #25124
by Lönkka
"when the results are tallied" means "when the votes are counted".
Replied by Lönkka on topic Re: Elder Kindred Network and Vox Domini
Me neither but I'll give the good old college try...I'm not native english speaker, so could anyone explain what "results are tallied" phrase means? Does it mean "referendum successful" or "referendum finished"?
"when the results are tallied" means "when the votes are counted".
Finnish
Politics!

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07 Mar 2012 10:18 - 07 Mar 2012 10:18 #25125
by Ankha
Complete rules reference indicates:
- Resolve the referendum. [6.3.2.3]
a) Determine the outcome of the referendum.
b) A referendum passes if it has more votes for than against.
c) A referendum fails if it is tied or has more votes against than it has in favor.
d) If it passes, apply the effects of the successful referendum.
So I guess "votes are tallied" is part of 6.3.2.3 a).
I don't think it is necessary for the Complete rules reference to be more detailled when the details are brung by the card text (otherwise it should include every possible windows allowed by cards, which would make the whole thing a big mess).
Votes are tallied when everyone who wants to cast votes has done so or abstained.
Until now, everything that cancels, makes a vote pass or fail automatically considers that the votes are not "tallied", that is the final vote count is not reached. Therefore, the number of votes "in favor" or "against" is unknown and considered to be 0.
. It means "counted".
Successful: the referendum passes (automatically or because more votes "in favor" were cast than "against")
Finished: ended.
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Elder Kindred Network and Vox Domini
Now i'm completely confused.Elder Kindred Network seems to be missing the "when the results are tallied" part. Vox Domini has the referendum fail before that point, which means the "vote difference" is 0.
I'll fix cardtext this week.
Could you please explain this dark game mechanics using game phases from complete ruling reference? Why something should fail referendum breaking some part of it, preventing next phases?
Complete rules reference indicates:
- Resolve the referendum. [6.3.2.3]
a) Determine the outcome of the referendum.
b) A referendum passes if it has more votes for than against.
c) A referendum fails if it is tied or has more votes against than it has in favor.
d) If it passes, apply the effects of the successful referendum.
So I guess "votes are tallied" is part of 6.3.2.3 a).
I don't think it is necessary for the Complete rules reference to be more detailled when the details are brung by the card text (otherwise it should include every possible windows allowed by cards, which would make the whole thing a big mess).
Votes are tallied when everyone who wants to cast votes has done so or abstained.
Until now, everything that cancels, makes a vote pass or fail automatically considers that the votes are not "tallied", that is the final vote count is not reached. Therefore, the number of votes "in favor" or "against" is unknown and considered to be 0.
I'm not a native english speaker neither, I used a dictionary to get the meaning of "tallied"I'm not native english speaker, so could anyone explain what "results are tallied" phrase means? Does it mean "referendum successful" or "referendum finished"?

Successful: the referendum passes (automatically or because more votes "in favor" were cast than "against")
Finished: ended.
Last edit: 07 Mar 2012 10:18 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: jAvel
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07 Mar 2012 10:42 #25127
by jAvel
I think something like this should be mentioned in rulebook.
So if referendum succeedes or fail in normal way (counting votes), in either case "Bribes" card's effect is applied.
Replied by jAvel on topic Re: Elder Kindred Network and Vox Domini
That is the wording I wanted to hear.Until now, everything that cancels, makes a vote pass or fail automatically considers that the votes are not "tallied", that is the final vote count is not reached. Therefore, the number of votes "in favor" or "against" is unknown and considered to be 0.
I think something like this should be mentioned in rulebook.
So if referendum succeedes or fail in normal way (counting votes), in either case "Bribes" card's effect is applied.
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07 Mar 2012 14:17 #25161
by Xaddam
I agree with you, (a) seems the best. It follows normal vtes terminology, it follows what is presumably the designers intent and it's not ambiguous.
Adam Esbjörnsson,
Prince of Örebro
Replied by Xaddam on topic Re: Elder Kindred Network and Vox Domini
Ah.. my message got deleted as I was sending it..
I was saying that maybe this change I proposed wasn't the best.
What about the following:
a - "If there are not more votes in favor of the referendum than against the referenum when results are tallied, the Methuselah calling the referendum burns 1 pool plus 1 additional pool for each vote difference."
b - "If the referendum fails, the acting Methuselah burns 1 pool per vote missing to have had the referendum succeed".
c - "If the referendum fails, the acting Methuselah gains 1 pool per vote in favor of the referendum, and burns 1 pool per vote against the referendum."
Notice that option c is missing some words to cover the answer given earlier.
I'm happier with option a.
I agree with you, (a) seems the best. It follows normal vtes terminology, it follows what is presumably the designers intent and it's not ambiguous.
Adam Esbjörnsson,
Prince of Örebro
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07 Mar 2012 14:40 #25165
by Pascal Bertrand
Replied by Pascal Bertrand on topic Re: Elder Kindred Network and Vox Domini
I have to check Vox Domini vs Bribes (or whatever other "when results are tallied" effects) first, though. Vox Domini is awkward.
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