file Elder Kindred Network and Vox Domini

07 Mar 2012 09:06 - 07 Mar 2012 09:48 #25113 by Pascal Bertrand
Ah.. my message got deleted as I was sending it..

I was saying that maybe this change I proposed wasn't the best.

What about the following:

a - "If there are not more votes in favor of the referendum than against the referenum when results are tallied, the Methuselah calling the referendum burns 1 pool plus 1 additional pool for each vote difference."

b - "If the referendum fails, the acting Methuselah burns 1 pool per vote missing to have had the referendum succeed".

c - "If the referendum fails, the acting Methuselah gains 1 pool per vote in favor of the referendum, and burns 1 pool per vote against the referendum."


Notice that option c is missing some words to cover the answer given earlier.

I'm happier with option a.
Last edit: 07 Mar 2012 09:48 by Pascal Bertrand.

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07 Mar 2012 10:17 #25124 by Lönkka

I'm not native english speaker, so could anyone explain what "results are tallied" phrase means? Does it mean "referendum successful" or "referendum finished"?

Me neither but I'll give the good old college try...

"when the results are tallied" means "when the votes are counted".

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07 Mar 2012 10:18 - 07 Mar 2012 10:18 #25125 by Ankha

Elder Kindred Network seems to be missing the "when the results are tallied" part. Vox Domini has the referendum fail before that point, which means the "vote difference" is 0.

I'll fix cardtext this week.

Now i'm completely confused.
Could you please explain this dark game mechanics using game phases from complete ruling reference? Why something should fail referendum breaking some part of it, preventing next phases?


Complete rules reference indicates:
- Resolve the referendum. [6.3.2.3]
a) Determine the outcome of the referendum.
b) A referendum passes if it has more votes for than against.
c) A referendum fails if it is tied or has more votes against than it has in favor.
d) If it passes, apply the effects of the successful referendum.

So I guess "votes are tallied" is part of 6.3.2.3 a).

I don't think it is necessary for the Complete rules reference to be more detailled when the details are brung by the card text (otherwise it should include every possible windows allowed by cards, which would make the whole thing a big mess).

Votes are tallied when everyone who wants to cast votes has done so or abstained.

Until now, everything that cancels, makes a vote pass or fail automatically considers that the votes are not "tallied", that is the final vote count is not reached. Therefore, the number of votes "in favor" or "against" is unknown and considered to be 0.

I'm not native english speaker, so could anyone explain what "results are tallied" phrase means? Does it mean "referendum successful" or "referendum finished"?

I'm not a native english speaker neither, I used a dictionary to get the meaning of "tallied" ;). It means "counted".
Successful: the referendum passes (automatically or because more votes "in favor" were cast than "against")
Finished: ended.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 07 Mar 2012 10:18 by Ankha.
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07 Mar 2012 10:42 #25127 by jAvel

Until now, everything that cancels, makes a vote pass or fail automatically considers that the votes are not "tallied", that is the final vote count is not reached. Therefore, the number of votes "in favor" or "against" is unknown and considered to be 0.

That is the wording I wanted to hear.
I think something like this should be mentioned in rulebook.

So if referendum succeedes or fail in normal way (counting votes), in either case "Bribes" card's effect is applied.

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07 Mar 2012 14:17 #25161 by Xaddam

Ah.. my message got deleted as I was sending it..

I was saying that maybe this change I proposed wasn't the best.

What about the following:

a - "If there are not more votes in favor of the referendum than against the referenum when results are tallied, the Methuselah calling the referendum burns 1 pool plus 1 additional pool for each vote difference."

b - "If the referendum fails, the acting Methuselah burns 1 pool per vote missing to have had the referendum succeed".

c - "If the referendum fails, the acting Methuselah gains 1 pool per vote in favor of the referendum, and burns 1 pool per vote against the referendum."


Notice that option c is missing some words to cover the answer given earlier.

I'm happier with option a.


I agree with you, (a) seems the best. It follows normal vtes terminology, it follows what is presumably the designers intent and it's not ambiguous.

Adam Esbjörnsson,
Prince of Örebro

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07 Mar 2012 14:40 #25165 by Pascal Bertrand
I have to check Vox Domini vs Bribes (or whatever other "when results are tallied" effects) first, though. Vox Domini is awkward.

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