Elder Kindred Network and Vox Domini

Interesting thread here... The thing is I don't know whether a raferendum influenced by not votes but effects like "automatically passing" (Charming Lobby, Cryptic Rider) even allow us to count votes (for the use of Voter on an auto passing referendum, is it even playable?). All referendum failing cards I know of (Yorube Shrine, Fakir al Sidi, Confusion of the Eye) states that they are only usable before any votes are cast. Vox Domini is clearly different because its usage allow us to play any time before the referendum resolves.

Could that mean it is usable with VEKN to cause massive damage? I still do not think so... effects that cause a vote fail or pass overwrite the institution of votes so once the referendum is influenced that way any vote difference should be completely disregarded for further effects.

My guess only...

Xaddam, without some outside ruling, your interpretation must be correct. That is exactly what the cards say. I couldn't find any rulings or explanations of those two cards that would change it.

Of course, what does that mean? This is a case where I would have bet a small amount of real money that LSJ would not have accepted the literal reading of the cards because the literal interpretation does not match the evident intended effect of VEKN. I think there is a slightly greater chance than not that Pascal will rule against the literal interpretation. Maybe 57% not literal, like "VD cancels VEKN" and 43% chance to agree with the literal interpretation.

Xaddam wrote:

In this situation, what would happen:

Methuselah A calls a vote.
Methuselah B plays Elder Kindred Network.
Players vote and the referendum is in favor by, say, 10 votes.
Methuselah B plays Vox Domini.

It seems to me that Methuselah A burns 11 pool in this situation. Is this correct? Elder Kindred Network says nothing by a positive or negative vote difference. Or is it the case that the referendum is regarded a tie until the votes have been tallied?

Elder Kindred Network seems to be missing the "when the results are tallied" part. Vox Domini has the referendum fail before that point, which means the "vote difference" is 0.

I'll fix cardtext this week.

Malachy wrote:

Interesting thread here... The thing is I don't know whether a raferendum influenced by not votes but effects like "automatically passing" (Charming Lobby, Cryptic Rider) even allow us to count votes (for the use of Voter on an auto passing referendum, is it even playable?). All referendum failing cards I know of (Yorube Shrine, Fakir al Sidi, Confusion of the Eye) states that they are only usable before any votes are cast. Vox Domini is clearly different because its usage allow us to play any time before the referendum resolves.

Voter Captivation is usable on an automatically passing vote: [LSJ 19981221] . Notice that the referendum is passing by 0, so you won't gain any blood / pool from that Voter Captivation.

Malachy wrote:

Could that mean it is usable with VEKN to cause massive damage?

Aaron wrote:

he literal interpretation does not match the evident intended effect of VEKN

I suppose that was "EKN"

To cause massive damage with EKN you need this card:

Kindred Coercion [DS:U2, FN:PG, CE:PTr]
Cardtype: Reaction
Cost: X blood
Discipline: Dominate
Only usable during a referendum.
[dom] Force X vampires to abstain from voting. This can cancel those vampires' votes. The affected vampires cannot be older than this reacting vampire.
[DOM] As above, but you may change the votes that the affected vampires cast to votes of your choice instead. (The affected vampires may choose to abstain if they have not already cast their votes.)
Artist: Stuart Beel

Any deck using big cap Ventrue with titles (say arika) should pack a module of 2x EKN + 2x KC, just for the kicks of being able to do 14 or so damage once in a great while.

I have actually ousted twice using EKN, the unlucky sod both times being my predator.

You can also use Malkavian Rider Clause + EKN.

Pascal wrote:

Elder Kindred Network seems to be missing the "when the results are tallied" part. Vox Domini has the referendum fail before that point, which means the "vote difference" is 0.

I'll fix cardtext this week.

Now i'm completely confused.
Could you please explain this dark game mechanics using game phases from complete ruling reference? Why something should fail referendum breaking some part of it, preventing next phases?

I'm not native english speaker, so could anyone explain what "results are tallied" phrase means? Does it mean "referendum successful" or "referendum finished"?

PS. I don't like the tendency in VtES game of using "break/interrupt phase" mechanics. Sorry for agression in this post.