More smartass ...: 'as card is played'

Pascal wrote:

yappo wrote:

Combat is an even worse problem as it's possible to have a combat between two meths, none of whom is acting.

Blissful Agony at superior played by the acting Meth's minion destroys the impulse rules by forcing the opposing (read reacting) minion into combat with another minion. If said minion is controlled by a third player, then the acting/reacting dichotomy falls over and dies.

Who said we need an acting Methuselah in the combat?
What is needed is a "Start" point (who is the acting Methuselah in cases of Taunt the Caged Beast / Blissful Agony). [LSJ 20070319] .

The following combat cards say we need an acting Metthuselah in the combat:

Chiram's Hold

Form of Mist (agreably doesn't matter as the acting specific part refers to a window outside of combat)

Primal Instincts


More notably 6.4.1 in the core rules say we need an acting Methuselah in the combat.


Edit: Error on my side. Acting minion is needed, not acting methuselah.

Pascal wrote:

yappo wrote:

The above statement only holds true for unambiguous action cards. The reason for this is that the 'as card is played' window ends before the 'as action is anounced' window. So, for example, you're not allowed to wait with your DI on GTU until the acting Meth has finalized the declaration if it's a bleed or moving blood to the uncontrolled region.

Wrong. First, fully declare action (level of discipline, targets, cost, how you will pay the cost) and play the action card, if any. There comes the "As played" window. Once that window is closed, we enter the "as announced" window.

This is in direct conflict with the rules book. See 6.2.1. Arguably both 6.2 and 6.2.1 aggregated creates a conflict with the concept that there is a 'as card is played' window which goes before the 'as action is announced' window, because both 6.2 and 6.2.1 places the playing of an action card after action declaration. Notably 6.2.1 explicitly states that, and I quote: "All details of the action are declared when the action is announced, including the target(s), the cost, the effects, etc. Any card required for the action is played (face up) at this time. Tap the acting minion".

Playing the card occurs during the 'as action is announced' window. I can't recall such an interpretation being used for at least the last ten years.

I agree that the rules book invalidates my interpretation as well, because according to the rules book there doesn't exist an 'as card is played' window separate from an 'as action is announced' window.

Add that the rules book also explicitly states that, and I quote: "Action modifiers and reaction cards can be played at any time before resolution during an action (unless otherwise noted on card text), with the acting Methuselah getting the opportunity to play first." Following the rules book I can most definitely stack all and any action modifier legal to play before block attempts before DI can be played.

yappo wrote:

The following combat cards say we need an acting Metthuselah in the combat:

Chiram's Hold

Form of Mist (agreably doesn't matter as the acting specific part refers to a window outside of combat)

Primal Instincts


More notably 6.4.1 in the core rules say we need an acting Methuselah in the combat.

Those effects say that they are only playable by or usable against an acting minion. That doesn't imply that there always needs to be an acting minion any more than Govern implies that there always needs to be Dominate (even if it might seem that way).

The line at the end of 6.4.1 is a noncomprehensive reminder of the usual sequencing rules, which can be found under 1.6.1 and which adequately cover combats that don't have acting minions.

yappo wrote:

This is in direct conflict with the rules book. See 6.2.1. Arguably both 6.2 and 6.2.1 aggregated creates a conflict with the concept that there is a 'as card is played' window which goes before the 'as action is announced' window, because both 6.2 and 6.2.1 places the playing of an action card after action declaration. Notably 6.2.1 explicitly states that, and I quote: "All details of the action are declared when the action is announced, including the target(s), the cost, the effects, etc. Any card required for the action is played (face up) at this time. Tap the acting minion".

Very good. So you do know that if DI/Rewind Time is played, the acting minion isn't tapped (and didn't tap). This means DI/Rewind Time/Power of All/.. are played right before the "Tap the acting minion". Thus, after "All details of the actiong are declared".

You can also have a look at the Complete Rules Reference , section IV.A.1-IV.A.3:

IV. HOW TO PERFORM ACTIONS

A. Declare the action. [6.2.1]
1- Play the action card, if any, and define the action (target, cost, etc).
2- Tap the acting minion.
3- Cards that are played "as the action is announced" may be played (other effects cannot be played until after the "as announced" stuff is finished).

"As played" comes before "As announced", but after terms are declared.
You can't change that, and trying to read it some other way is wrong.

Looks like a good reason to fix the rules book.

The rules reference you quote is also not written as you state.

There is a header 'A' with sub-headers '1', '2' and '3'. I can only read it as it is written:

'A' We are going to describe how an action is declared.
'1', '2' and '3'. Here are the sequential steps, in finer granularity, describing the process of declaring an action.

Or, in English: Play the action card, if any.

Depending on how we read the word 'and' (and both interpretations have been used in VTES rulings), we either simultaneously define the action, or we immediately after define the action.

Chosing targets, costs, etc is explicitly part of the 'define the action'.

Under no circumstances is it possible to read that text in a way that would make chosing targets, etc come before playing the card.

After that it's once again crystal clear. The reference is in direct conflict with the rules book, but it does indeed rule out the playing of other effects, which equally explicitly is allowed in the rules book.

Anyway, I read what you quote, and 'as played' comes either before or at the same time as when terms are declared. I can't change that, and trying to read it some other way is wrong.

Suoli wrote:

yappo wrote:

The following combat cards say we need an acting Metthuselah in the combat:

Chiram's Hold

Form of Mist (agreably doesn't matter as the acting specific part refers to a window outside of combat)

Primal Instincts


More notably 6.4.1 in the core rules say we need an acting Methuselah in the combat.

Those effects say that they are only playable by or usable against an acting minion. That doesn't imply that there always needs to be an acting minion any more than Govern implies that there always needs to be Dominate (even if it might seem that way).

The line at the end of 6.4.1 is a noncomprehensive reminder of the usual sequencing rules, which can be found under 1.6.1 and which adequately cover combats that don't have acting minions.

Fair enough. The two cards specified with effects inside the combat are invalid to play unless the opposing minion also happens to be the acting minion. Who plays cards first has nothing to do with that. I stand corrected.