More smartass ...: 'as card is played'

Fair enough Reyda

The problem child here is the rather recent ruling on Psalm.

It doesn't limit what kind of reaction cards I can kill after a wake, which implictly means I can prevent the playing of Rewind Time as well.

I hope we can agree that the three cards Computer Hacking (just to have an example of an action card), Forced Awakening and Rewind Time are all played during the 'as card is played' window for Computer Hacking.

If Psalm is indeed playable to disable the playing of Rewind Time after the Forced Awakening (perectly consistent with the impulse swapping rules we have), then that also means that Psalm is indeed playable during the 'as card is played' window for Computer Hacking (because I'm playing Psalm to prevent you from react with a card which definitely is playable during the 'as card is played' window, and if I play my card before you can play yours, then by definition I have to be playing it during the same window.

Psalm lacks any text making it 'special' as far as when it can be played.

In VTES we don't add restrictions to cards based on what text is NOT written on the card. If Psalm (lacking any extra enabling text) is playable during a certain time-window, then all other modifiers behave to same way (disregarding explicit text limiting them).

Or to visualize it from 'the other direction'. If you want to prevent the playing of Rewind Time (wakes or no wakes) on your GtU, then you MUST play Psalm before you announce if GtU is played at superior or inferior.

Got some gasoline now?

Suoli wrote:

Chaitan wrote:

You are probably talking about a clarification, it doesn't need additional ruling because it follows the normal sequencing rules just fine.

For example:
Scenario 1:
X bleed Y and give away impulse. Y play wake and decides to wait until X play +bleed action modifier before playing deflection (returns the impulse). X play Psalm of the Damned. X can not play deflection.

Scenario 2:
X bleed Y and give away impulse. Y play wake and immediately play deflection. X can not insert Psalm of the Damned between the cards because he does not have the impulse.

That's incorrect. The impulse always passes back to the acting Methuselah when an effect is played. After Y plays a Wake, X gets to play Psalm of the Damned.

Is this limited to action/reaction only? It certainly isn't so when it comes to combat cards and when a methuselah act (see: madness network/enkil cog).

Suoli wrote:

I really can't understand the point you are trying to prove here.
Psalm of the damned can be played after a wake, yes, and so what ? Does it somewhat bend the rules ? I can't see where it should be a problem, since when the blocking minion plays his first reaction card (wake), as the acting meth, you have the priority to play any card you want to trump the block.

If Wake and Rewind Time can be played in the 'as announced' window and Psalm of the Damned can be played in the same window as Wake, it follows that Psalm of the Damned can be played in the 'as announced' window as well, despite lacking an explicit 'usable as announced' clause. Either Psalm is arbitrated to be an exception or every action modifier is playable in the 'as announced' window by default.

Absolutely correct, but it could no longer e used to prevent RT at that time (simply because TR is no longer legal to play when the action is announced).

What I was aiming at was that if Psalm (without special enabling text) is playable during the 'as card is played' window, then all action modifiers immediately defalt to be playable during the same window as well. Basically, Psalm lacks any text making it 'a special snowflake'.

I don't believe the intention was to allow every action modifier to be playable during this window (barring explicit restrictions), which is the main reason for this smartas article.

Chaitan wrote:

Is this limited to action/reaction only? It certainly isn't so when it comes to combat cards and when a methuselah act (see: madness network/enkil cog).

I'm not sure what makes you say that. This is directly from the rulebook:

1.6.1. General
5. Sequencing. If two or more players want to play a card or effect, the acting Methuselah plays first. At every stage, the acting player always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, she may play another and another. Once she is finished, the opportunity passes to the defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting Methuselah. Note that if any Methuselah uses a card or effect, the acting Methuselah again gets the opportunity to play the next effect.

yappo wrote:

This is my second smartass article.

It should be noted that a single clarification/ruling will void the entire chain of argument I am about to present.

Thesis: All action modifiers are by default playable during the acting Meth's 'as card is played', in this case referring to the action card being played.

Your thesis is invalid.
Rulebook 1.6.1.1 wrote

Some effects can cancel a card "as it is played." These effects (and effects that grant the ability to play them, like Forced Awakening) are the only effects allowed during the "as played" time period of another card. Even drawing to replace cards comes after this time period.

Let's see what comes next...

yappo wrote:

Argument 1: The action modifier Psalm of the Damned has been ruled to be playable after a wake card is played to prevent the reacting Meth from playing more reaction cards.

Sure. That's the sequencing rule ( Rulebook 1.6.1.5 )

Please note the "psalm after Wake" discussion is here: [LSJ 20100221] , and the question is "Can I play Psalm after they Wake and before they declare a block attempt / Deflect ?"
The answer to that one is "yes", per the sequencing rules.
If you change the question to "Can I play Psalm as Wake is played?", the answer is "No, because it doesn't read it can be played, and there is a rule that doesn't allow it to be played in that window."

Argument 2: Wake cards are legal to play in order to enable the playing of Rewind Time, which in turn is used to cancel the acting Meth's action card 'as card is played'.

Correct, per Rulebook 1.6.1.1.

yappo wrote:

The above statement only holds true for unambiguous action cards. The reason for this is that the 'as card is played' window ends before the 'as action is anounced' window. So, for example, you're not allowed to wait with your DI on GTU until the acting Meth has finalized the declaration if it's a bleed or moving blood to the uncontrolled region.

Wrong. First, fully declare action (level of discipline, targets, cost, how you will pay the cost) and play the action card, if any. There comes the "As played" window. Once that window is closed, we enter the "as announced" window.

yappo wrote:

It could be argued that the above holds true for any action card, unabigious or not, in which case you can never play an action modifier on your own action card until the action is fully declared (which occurs after the 'as card is played window'.

That's actually quite true, as long as you don't have an action modifier that reads "as the action card is played". If we had such a card, then we would have action modifiers playable in the "as played" window of an action card.

Where is the ambiguity ? If the card says it is playable, or if the rules say it is playable, then it is playable. Otherwise, it isn't.

yappo wrote:

This would, however, present us with another ambiguity.

The 'as card is played' window isn't indivisible. I play an action card, you DI said card, a third player plays Sudden on your DI, and my action card is now played and I'm about to announce the action. Futhermore, we have an explicit ruling stating that playing a wake-card before playing Rewind Time is also legal. This last ruling allows the reacting Meth to stack reactions during the 'as cardis played' window for an action card.

Wrong. Fully announce and play the card, and then we enter the "as played" window, where DIs and Suddens are played.
Similarly, you don't say "I play Pentex Subversion - does someone Sudden it? No? Then it's going to be on my grand prey's Carna."
About "stacking reactions during the as played window" : We are in the as played window. Only "wakes" and cards usable in the as played window are usable. Other cards aren't. And, as longa s we're in that window, cards aren't replaced (again, Rulebook 1.6.1.1 ). No sure how many cards one could "stack" in that window.

yappo wrote:

Thus it follows that there is an action to react to (or wake cards wouldn't be playable in the first place), ie that the action starts before it is anounced. Following this line of reasoning it also follows that action modifiers are playable during this window, provided that they don't refer to an effect expicitly needing an action announcement.

The part where the action "exists" in the "as played" window is correct.
Here's a realistic example:
Conrad Adoula ("While Conrad is acting, reaction cards cost younger vampires an additional blood.") plays GTU. Ibn Khaldun plays On the Qui Vive + Rewind Time.
These two reaction cards cost a total of 4 blood to Ibn, as he is a younger vampire playing cards while Conrad is acting.

yappo wrote:

Let me clarify. Stacking Conditioning on GtU during the 'as card is played' window would be illegal, because the playing GtU at inferior or superior isn't determined until the 'as action is announced' window.

That's something you can't do, because you can't play Conditioning in the "as played" window.

yappo wrote:

Absolutely correct, but it could no longer e used to prevent RT at that time (simply because TR is no longer legal to play when the action is announced).

I was always under the impression that playing and announcing an action card is a single, uninterrupted action. But I guess that would place Seduction and RT in the same window as well, so...