Justicar Retribution

AaronC wrote:

Ralf, the ruling you cite here was written five months before the 7/7/98 ruling. That would mean that the 7/7/98 ruling is more current, so the bleed from the Laptop Computer is not optional.

Right. Ralf's link is only good for nostalgia. A lot of the rulings have changed since then. Notice also that at that time Queen Anne with a Tremere prey would not burn from Justicar Retribution. Now she would.

vtesocrates wrote:

Right. Ralf's link is only good for nostalgia. A lot of the rulings have changed since then. Notice also that at that time Queen Anne with a Tremere prey would not burn from Justicar Retribution. Now she would.

I think you have that reversed. I believe the old text (don't have a copy in my current location) said that Queen Anne got +1 bleed if your prey controls a ready Tremere. Now she gets +1 bleed when bleeding a Methuselah who controls a ready Tremere, thus she's not burned by JR.

Queen Anne


Group: 2
Camarilla Prince of London: Anne gets an additional +1 bleed when bleeding a Methuselah who controls a ready Tremere. +1 bleed.

To highlight how this works...

Justicar Retribution
Type: Political Action
Requires: camarilla
Requires a Camarilla vampire.
Successful referendum burns all vampires with a current bleed of 3 or more.

Constanza Vinti
Clan: Brujah (group 2)
Capacity: 8
Disciplines: CEL DOM POT
Camarilla Prince of Rome: Constanza gets +2 bleed when bleeding a Methuselah who controls a ready Ventrue.

If my prey controls ANY READY Ventrue, then Constanza's base bleed (without cards) will be a 3-bleed. Justicar Retribution will immediately check to see that Constanza would declare a 3-bleed when announcing the action and burns her.

Alexis Sorokin
Clan: Ravnos (group 4)
Capacity: 8
Disciplines: CEL CHI OBF PRO for
Independent. Red List: Once each combat, Alexis may dodge as a strike. She may steal an equipment card as a action. She gets +1 bleed when bleeding a Methuselah who controls a ready Toreador.

Week of Nightmares
Type: Master
Requires: Ravnos
Master.
Put this card in play with 10 nightmare counters. Ravnos get +1 bleed and +1 strength and do not hunt as normal. A Ravnos may steal a blood from another Ravnos as a +1 stealth hunt action. During each Methuselah's untap phase, he or she may move a nightmare counter from this card to a Ravnos. If this card has no counters, each Ravnos burns a blood for each nightmare counter or is burned, then burn this card and the counters. Only one Week of Nightmares may be played in a game.

Alexis' prey flicked Alexis to a AAA deck (which changed her 2-bleed to 3-bleed) and her Predator has called Justicar Retribution. Alexis' prey does not control a Toreador, so her bleed would be for 2. Justicar Retribution ignores her.


Smudge the Ignored has a J.S.Simmons and Laptop Computer. +1 Bleed from J.S.Simmons, +1 bleed from Laptop Computer and the result would be a 3-bleed on your prey. Smudge gets destroyed by Justicar Retribution.

AaronC wrote:

vtesocrates wrote:

Right. Ralf's link is only good for nostalgia. A lot of the rulings have changed since then. Notice also that at that time Queen Anne with a Tremere prey would not burn from Justicar Retribution. Now she would.

I think you have that reversed. I believe the old text (don't have a copy in my current location) said that Queen Anne got +1 bleed if your prey controls a ready Tremere. Now she gets +1 bleed when bleeding a Methuselah who controls a ready Tremere, thus she's not burned by JR.

No, I wasn't talking about any change to her card text at all. In the link Ralf provided LSJ ruled that Queen Anne's conditional +1 bleed only applied while she was bleeding a prey with a ready Tremere, so she would be considered to have 2 bleed at all times until she's actually bleeding and therefore Justicar Retribution would not affect her even if her prey controls a ready a Tremere.

That ruling was later reversed. Conditional bleeds do count for Justicar Retribution if the condition is true. Queen Anne will burn to a successful Justicar Retribution if her prey controls a ready Tremere.

groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/7dfe785e24872bf8

Oh my God, I see where you all are getting this stuff. LSJ's ruling from 1998 was really bad.

Bleed: A minion's "current bleed" is the amount the minion would be
bleeding for when he announces a bleed action against his Prey.
#
# This affects only Justicar Retribution, but is a general ruling.

Wow. I don't even know what to say about this. Some more "wisdom" from LSJ:
groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/498b665b64b7188b/63de7bf47d9bfee4?lnk=gst&q=justicar+retribution#63de7bf47d9bfee4

According to LSJ, Justicar Retribution burns a vampire whose bleed when bleeding its controller's prey would be 3 or more.

Question: instead of issuing a separate ruling covering just this card, why not just rewrite the card to actually say that?

The interpretation of the word "current" in the ruling covering the term "current bleed" is NOT what it means in English. You must have access to the ruling to tell you what the card text actually means. Bad, bad, bad. Otherwise "+X bleed while bleeding" seems clearly to only add to the "current" bleed during a bleed action, not a Justicar Retribution political action.

If LSJ wanted it to work that way, then he shouldn't have changed the text of all those "if your prey has a ready X, vampire gets an additional +Y bleed" (since a positive 'if' condition clearly adds to the current bleed) OR he should have changed the text of Justicar Retribution to clearly state how it should be played.

Bleuch, I need to brush my teeth now to get out the bad taste.

AaronC wrote:

If LSJ wanted it to work that way, then he shouldn't have changed the text of all those "if your prey has a ready X, vampire gets an additional +Y bleed" (since a positive 'if' condition clearly adds to the current bleed) OR he should have changed the text of Justicar Retribution to clearly state how it should be played.

Doesn't work with Deflections.

Anyways, the current ruling is: Justicar Retribution burns vampires who would bleed for 3 or more if they declared a default bleed action right now.

Some examples:
Leandro would burn. (base bleed of 1+2)
Smudge with Robert Carter would burn (base bleed of 1+2, using retainers is mandatory)
François Villon with a Laptop Computer would burn (base bleed of 1+1+1, using equipments is mandatory)
Little Taylor of Prague with a Camera Phone would not burn (base bleed of 1+1)
Niklaus Vermeulen with a Legendary Vampire would burn.

Now, the conditional parts:
Constanza Vinti would burn if her prey controls a ready Ventrue.
Alexis Sorokin with a Week of Nightmares would burn if her prey controls a ready Toreador.
Queen Anne would burn if the prey controls a ready Tremere.
An Anarch with Bear Beating would get +2 bleed if the Bear Beating's "target" is the prey.

And those who wouldn't burn:
If Stick has a Codex of the Edenic Groundskeepers and all his prey's minions are tapped, he won't burn.
Esau won't burn.


And the fun part:
Arika with a Pentex Subversion will burn ( [LSJ 20100527] )
Rabbat with a Legendary Vampire will burn ( [LSJ 20100527] )