"As Played" Window Ruling Contradictions?

Izaak wrote:

I don't want to have to explain why you *can* cycle a Wake to fish for a Telepathic Misdirection, but you *cannot* cycle a Wake to fish for a Touch of Clarity.

Why not? Because it doesn't make sense. And both are a result of a ruling invented to prevent DI-fishing.

You give an example that make sense, then say "it does not make sense".

You have a partial point in that the rule are soemtime not intuitive, but being able to fish for touch of clarity feel not the same than being able to draw a card. In one part you have the whole action to find card ; on the other you need it right now. I am not too sure why - except magic-like stack habit - people would feel both things are the same.

Ankha wrote:

I'm not even talking about card rulings... Why is it so hard to follow the written rules (even if you find them crappy for whatever reason)?

1) Replacing immediately is more fluid than having to wait for the DI. You look at your new card and update your plan while the other players ponder the DI, everyone has something to do at the same time. With the current rule, it is them first, then you, which takes more time.

2) Knowing the rules is one thing, playing right is another. In the middle of a game, everyone makes a replace misplay at some point, be it forgetting to replace, replace and keep playing without waiting for the DI, replace a wake/wash when played,... Forgetting to replace is not a big deal because it usually only harms the one who makes the mistake and in all cases it is easy to fix. "Do not replace" cards are a necessary evil rule, they are tricky but have an impact on the game. There is no such reason to the "as played" replacement rule since it does not prevent cancel chains on its own.

A game is about taking decisions and the rules are there to make those decisions challenging, not to trap players. When two rules lead to almost the same games, the one that generates fewer misplays is better. The least attention a player has to spend on not breaking the rules, the more he can focus on actually playing the game.

Izaak wrote:

And I don't want to go explain Joe Casual this rule at a tournament because he replaced his Vessel before telling which Blood Doll he wanted to burn and his potential target is being obnoxious about it.

Then you should have had him read the rulebook, section 1.6.1.1 "Playing cards": The player completely declares the effect of the card when it is played.

Since, in your example, he did not "play" the card -- because he didn't completely declare the effect of the card when it was played -- he cannot then claim that 1.6.1.2 is forcing him to "immediately" draw a card. Because he hasn't yet played the Vessel.

See, rules work!

nc-italy wrote:

I really don't know if you even ackowledge the fact that the very esistence of cards such as direct intervention indeed point as false your statement
that there are no "magic like" istantaneous or interrupt effect in vtes

I really don't nkow if you even acknowledge that V:TES isn't Magic.

There are cards with card text. Some cards are allowed in a given window, by explicit rule. Some cards are not. This has nothing to do with the speed of the card. This is not Magic. The cards are played based on card text and the rules, not on some bizarre reconstruction of V:TES using Magic rules.

DI is not an instant card. It is not an interrupt card. It is a card that cancels another card "as played" or "as it is played", and so has special handling in the rules, under 1.6.1.1. Many cards are played in particular timing windows - this happens here and is no more or less instant than Freak Drive or Lost in Crowds, or choosing a strike during Choose Strike, because those concepts aren't part of the game. You can play certain cards/effects at certain times, as defined by the rules or by card text. There's nothing more to it. There aren't sorceries and instants and interrupts. Just cards that you play and effects that you use when the rules let you, or card text lets you (by the Golden Rule of Cards etc.).

Why can't we play actions in the master phase? They're just as slow as each other. Not being able to do so is contradictory! Start a crusade! Oh wait, the rules say to play them at different times. Just like they say to play cancellers and other effects at different times. Funny, that.

Continuing to campaign for changes to V:TES based on concepts that are not part of V:TES is beyond dumb. Might as well campaign for all your bleeds to happen simultaneously. What happens when Stanislava gains trample? I demand errata to Incriminating Videotape to have it expressed as Isabel-do-Leon-Walk.

Izaak wrote:

And I don't want to go explain Joe Casual this rule at a tournament because he replaced his Vessel before telling which Blood Doll he wanted to burn and his potential target is being obnoxious about it.

If you don't want to, you call the judge over and ask them to correct the misplay.

This is just the same as a player declaring the amount of blood taken from Villein or Minion Tap, before replacing.

Izaak wrote:

I don't want to have to explain why you *can* cycle a Wake to fish for a Telepathic Misdirection, but you *cannot* cycle a Wake to fish for a Touch of Clarity.

Show them the rulebook. It's right there, in small words. If you don't want to, call over the judge. No need to explain, it's just the rules.

There's no logical reason why transfer has to come after minion, or discard comes after transfers. That's entirely arbitrary. Yet you should still correct someone who does it wrongly. Indeed, there is pretty much no reason for this order at all - it's just arbitrary. Yet the rule on cancellation has a pretty obvious motivation - to keep the game flow reasonably timely, where possible. If you can enforce one rule that is entirely arbitrary - Discard comes after Influence - enforce this one as being entirely arbitrary in exactly the same way.


More simply: the rules aren't optional. You don't get to choose which ones you follow in sanctioned tournaments.

If you don't want to, you call the judge over and ask them to correct the misplay.

Except... there is no misplay. See below.

Since, in your example, he did not "play" the card -- because he didn't completely declare the effect of the card when it was played -- he cannot then claim that 1.6.1.2 is forcing him to "immediately" draw a card. Because he hasn't yet played the Vessel.

See, rules work!

Except that buring the Blood Doll is optional, such as taking the pool for the Edge is optional. Or using your Blood Dolls. Or taking blood from your Hunting Ground.

If you forget to take for the edge, you can't backtrack it and take the pool later. The same argument could (and should) be used when you replaced the Vessel. You "forgot" to burn the Blood Doll so your chances are over.

The difference in misplays is that you *must* announce for how much you play Villein. You *must* choose if you want to have transfers when Leandro is in play. Burning the Blood Doll is optional.

Unless of course you are suggesting that you'd actually have to declare that you're not burning a Blood Doll and that you can't forget, but in that case this should be applied to the Edge as well.

When you're playing with me, I'm personally not too fussed about it and you can burn the Blood Doll even if you did replace, but unfortunatly I run into players who are taking every opportunity to fuck people over by technicalities. Yes, they are asses and generally annoying to play against, but with maybe 50 active players in a 300km radius there isn't much choice, is there?