Winged Second

Timo wrote:

Ohlmann wrote:

Well, you need to use two minions in one combat. And the winged second cannot untap via Freak drive if it's during your turn. In my experience, gargoyles are just too expensive for that - especially considering the slave restriction.

Actually, it is a reaction so you could use a wake in order to make it work.

For some reason I thought it was a combat card. The need for 2 gargoyles (and presumably two wake) is still here

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Aggro-poke is moderately hard. The Winged Second can't play Raking Talons - they're only given the option to play a strike card, which Raking Talons isn't. So you'd need a non-generic-combat-card source of aggravated damage, such as an already-possessed weapon (e.g. Sengir Dagger) or a strike card (e.g. Burning Wrath).

Ah, right, true. Hmmm.

Well, I guess something funky with a small Gargoyle with Sengir Dagger on "standby" could work. Your "big" Gargoyle blocks, and the small gargoyle joins the fight with WS, dealing some aggravated damage even if the opponent manages to go to long range. A bit iffy, but at least not totally brain dead.

I may have to try this at some point, just for giggles

Ohlmann wrote:

For some reason I thought it was a combat card. The need for 2 gargoyles (and presumably two wake) is still here

Well, it only needs one Gargoyle(*), and the other guy might be an already-untapped would-be blocker. Or you might even have all your vampires tapped and one of them is being rushed, and you throw up a Wake and WS with another vampire to cause pain. Maybe, maybe you could argue for including a small number of them as a combat surprise in a deck, in the same way that you might include 4 Target Vitals in an otherwise non-combat deck. But even then, it's a real stretch.


(*) Actually, no Gargoyles, just a minion with flight. Leaving aside Gargoyles playing Clan Impersonation, you could plausibly do something with Taking the Skin: Vulture or superior Concordance . The Abombwe route is potentially more plausible, since hand to hand combat is more likely in such a deck, but the Abombwe strikes don't offer much more than 2 damage (strike: strength +1).

Patagia, unfortunately, can only be triggered once already in combat.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Ohlmann wrote:

For some reason I thought it was a combat card. The need for 2 gargoyles (and presumably two wake) is still here

Well, it only needs one Gargoyle(*), and the other guy might be an already-untapped would-be blocker. Or you might even have all your vampires tapped and one of them is being rushed, and you throw up a Wake and WS with another vampire to cause pain. Maybe, maybe you could argue for including a small number of them as a combat surprise in a deck, in the same way that you might include 4 Target Vitals in an otherwise non-combat deck. But even then, it's a real stretch.


(*) Actually, no Gargoyles, just a minion with flight. Leaving aside Gargoyles playing Clan Impersonation, you could plausibly do something with Taking the Skin: Vulture or superior Concordance . The Abombwe route is potentially more plausible, since hand to hand combat is more likely in such a deck, but the Abombwe strikes don't offer much more than 2 damage (strike: strength +1).

Patagia, unfortunately, can only be triggered once already in combat.

You could even add Impundulu ^^

Impundulu and the Kikiyoan are neat non gargoyle winged seconds.....

I had a conversation at the NAC about how gargoyles are so bad, MotS for textbook damnation and then gettimg free superior concordance on everyone is more efficient

You get +1 strength, flight, and a burn blood to untap clause. Now, gargoyles need strength bonus and a way to stay up to block, but "doing the concord-dance" gets you more cool stuff. -1 stealth is bad, but if you already are fighting, mayne not too impossible to overcome.

I still plan on building my malkavian concordance flight deck some day....

But think about already good decks that can afford a bolt on concordance package:
Stickmen is already a 70-80 card deck, but cutting in Klaus and jefferson with MotS and concordance adds a "built in stick" and untap tech. But you have too few slots to use winged second, as the crow, or swoop.
Gangrel with THA could benefit I suppose, because agg as normal means force of will is easier.
Aggro stickmen and aggro lawfirm/neolawfirm could DtD bleed for 6 and it cost 3 blood instead of 2 and a trip to torpor (and neofirm can have maryanne alastor textbook)
Magical malks could benefit.

But the bottomline is it doesnt add enough to be super useful. The setup is more of a drawback than whatever drawback you overcome.

And again, most of the time gargoyles are worse. So, Kikiyoan and Impundulu?

(TtsVulture isnt that great. Minion is awesome, if you can pull it off. Ariadne with abo and 11 caps with fueled by heartsblood make it funny. I had an 11 caps deck with hardestadt, eleimelech, fakir, and saulot. LB could give 3 of them an abo skill card to use DC throat, so Id always thought about tsminion for big bleeds at stealth...)

Ok. So winged second CAN attack if the range is set at long in the round? He just strikes as if close? So he could just str damage if the range is set at long? Getting confused now.