file Illusions of the Kindred VS Outside the Hourglass

04 Jan 2018 17:08 - 04 Jan 2018 17:09 #84738 by kschaefer
Not that I disagree with Ankha's resolution, but Kuruc's misunderstanding is a common problem with VtES combat. There are phases and steps and sort-of, kind-of phases that go before or after those. Each with slightly different rules about how damage or combat ends can play out. It can be very confusing to sort out.

The rulebook also doesn't really cover pre-range Combat Ends, which makes this all the harder to parse if you don't "follow the rulings" closely.

Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Combat ends is effective at any range. Combat ends is not affected by a dodge, since dodge only cancels effects that are directed at the dodging minion.

Combat Ends: A strike that ends combat before any damage or other strike effects happen.


Can we get some clarification in the rulebook about this? It seems that we've established a system over the years for handling this without ever codifying it.
Last edit: 04 Jan 2018 17:09 by kschaefer. Reason: Fixed rulebook quotes.

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04 Jan 2018 17:19 - 04 Jan 2018 17:20 #84740 by Ankha

Oh, so when the damage comes from a retainer or it's environmental damage, it still applies even if the opposing vampire take strikes: combat end?

No. These damage are inflicted during the normal strike resolution. But since "Strike: Combat Ends" resolves before that, the damage isn't "queued" and is not applied.

So the strike: combat end will only be protected from other damage from strikes (hand damage/ melee damage/gun/etc...)? Does it work in the case of the carrion crows?

No, strike: combat ends avoids this kind of damage to be taken.

So if damage is taken sooner than normal strike, it is still applied after the strike: combat end. Out of the fight.

It would require damage that is applied between the strike declaration and the strike resolution. I can't think of any card doing that.

So Carrion crows isn´t enviromental damage?

Yes it is, in the sense that it is damage that is not inflicted by a minion.

The carrion damage is at press step that never happen if a strike combat ends occurs.

No, it is inflicted during the normal strike resolution (before any additional damage for instance).

@Ankha after ItK ( combat ends ) can B play a combat card to prevent the damage since the combat already ended?

That is an interesting question. If B can prevent the damage, then B can lock a Barrens to draw prevent cards. That would mean that B could also play Outside the Hourglass. That would mean that A could play more cards after B has played Illusions of the Kindred.
I need to sort this out.

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Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 04 Jan 2018 17:20 by Ankha.

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04 Jan 2018 18:41 #84743 by Boris The Blade

1/ A plays Outside the Hourglass.
2/ A passes the impulse.

That sounds inaccurate.
A plays Outside the Hourglass. Outside the Hourglass resolves, B suffers 2 damage which opens a prevent phase. Since that is a new phase, A still gets the impulse by default. Only after A declines to play does B get the impulse. If B can tap the Barrens in the prevent phase, so can A.

3/ B plays Illusions of the Kindred (now 0 blood). Combat ends but there's still 2 damage to handle (groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/UIFzsu-Zips/fafEXIwVn08J)

I would not bundle those 2 together. In the Weather Control/Mariel case, combat ends before the damage is applied. In the Outside the Hourglass case, combat ends in the prevent phase, after damage has been applied but before it has been resolved. Timing-wise, they are not the same thing.

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04 Jan 2018 19:08 #84747 by Sambomb

The carrion damage is at press step that never happen if a strike combat ends occurs.

No, it is inflicted during the normal strike resolution (before any additional damage for instance).

I swapped the effect with drawing out the beast, my bad

Archbishop of Itaocara
Prince ID #510

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04 Jan 2018 19:13 #84749 by Sambomb

What resolve first, can A play amaranth before the new combat start therefore be burned at the bloodhunt referendum and stopping the new combat?
Can A play a Telepathic Tracking preventing the new combat ? If possible, the combat ends immediately because the opposing minion isn’t ready anymore or there is a timing to play cards like taste of vitae, disarm, amaranth?

Any clarification about that?

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Prince ID #510

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04 Jan 2018 21:59 #84752 by jamesatzephyr

What resolve first, can A play amaranth before the new combat start therefore be burned at the bloodhunt referendum and stopping the new combat?


The pending damage still has to be resolved before the combat ends, as per the various precedents Ankha cites (Elysium, Alpha Glint etc.). If that results in a minion going to torpor, being burned etc., then that happens.

Can A play a Telepathic Tracking preventing the new combat ?


Once the damage is resolved, the combat will finally end. If both minions are still ready, you can play Telepathic Tracking at superior, meaning that the combat doesn't end.

If possible, the combat ends immediately because the opposing minion isn’t ready anymore or there is a timing to play cards like taste of vitae, disarm, amaranth?


If the opposing minion isn't ready anymore, you can't play Telepathic Tracking in the first place.
Only usable at the end of a round when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end.

If you haven't finished handling the damage, combat can't end yet - and you could sneak in, for example, playing Skin of Night or Skin of Rock or whatever, and since those are combat cards, you have to still be in combat. Then after finally tidying up the damage, combat ends. Then you play Telepathic Tracking if (and only if) both minions are still ready.
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