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file Illusions of the Kindred VS Outside the Hourglass

04 Jan 2018 22:14 - 04 Jan 2018 22:14 #84754 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Illusions of the Kindred VS Outside the Hourglass

So if damage is taken sooner than normal strike, it is still applied after the strike: combat end. Out of the fight.

It would require damage that is applied between the strike declaration and the strike resolution. I can't think of any card doing that.


Have Alexandra untap a Toreador Prince who has The Treatment on them and is in combat.

(Then set fire to the players involved.)
Last edit: 04 Jan 2018 22:14 by jamesatzephyr.

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04 Jan 2018 22:33 #84755 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Illusions of the Kindred VS Outside the Hourglass

@Ankha after ItK ( combat ends ) can B play a combat card to prevent the damage since the combat already ended?

That is an interesting question. If B can prevent the damage, then B can lock a Barrens to draw prevent cards. That would mean that B could also play Outside the Hourglass. That would mean that A could play more cards after B has played Illusions of the Kindred.
I need to sort this out.


This is fairly easy to resolve based on the current rules.

Consider the normal situation of two vampires in combat, no freak-ass weird timing issues. We exchange normal speed strikes, but one of them is damage, and one of them isn't damage. The effect of the non-damage strike is therefore applied prior to damage handling. Simplest example is a Theft of Vitae vs hand damage. Strike resolution means that the blood for Theft moves immediately, and the hand damage strike is applied at the same time but you still have the opportunity to prevent damage and then heal damage/burn blood to prevent destruction etc.

At the point that the Theft of Vitae moves the blood, this can unready the opponent. For example, you might be in combat with an ally who burns immediately from being empty. Alternatively, you might be facing a vampire with Anathema on them and so is burned when they become empty. Instead of Theft of Vitae, you might be facing a Rowan Ring or another "strike: go to torpor" effect. Again, the "go to torpor" resolves before damage handling kicks in.

Because one of the minions is no longer ready, combat ends. But the other combatant still, utterly uncontroversially, plays damage prevention such as Skin of Rock to prevent the hand damage, even though combat is trying to end.

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04 Jan 2018 23:33 #84756 by Sambomb
Replied by Sambomb on topic Illusions of the Kindred VS Outside the Hourglass
James, ankha ruled in this topic that the combat ends, a new combat with the next vampire of the cript start and the B minion goes to torpor.
And he isn’t sure yet about combat prevention cards after ItK is played at prevention step since it ends the combat.
Archbishop of Itaocara
Prince ID #510

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05 Jan 2018 10:29 #84760 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Illusions of the Kindred VS Outside the Hourglass

1/ A plays Outside the Hourglass.
2/ A passes the impulse.

That sounds inaccurate.
A plays Outside the Hourglass. Outside the Hourglass resolves, B suffers 2 damage which opens a prevent phase. Since that is a new phase, A still gets the impulse by default. Only after A declines to play does B get the impulse. If B can tap the Barrens in the prevent phase, so can A.

That was the scenario I chose, not a detailed structure of all possible scenarios.

3/ B plays Illusions of the Kindred (now 0 blood). Combat ends but there's still 2 damage to handle (groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/UIFzsu-Zips/fafEXIwVn08J)

I would not bundle those 2 together. In the Weather Control/Mariel case, combat ends before the damage is applied. In the Outside the Hourglass case, combat ends in the prevent phase, after damage has been applied but before it has been resolved. Timing-wise, they are not the same thing.

I did not introduce any bundle. The result is the same: there are pending damage that must be handled before combat ends.

@Ankha after ItK ( combat ends ) can B play a combat card to prevent the damage since the combat already ended?

That is an interesting question. If B can prevent the damage, then B can lock a Barrens to draw prevent cards. That would mean that B could also play Outside the Hourglass. That would mean that A could play more cards after B has played Illusions of the Kindred.
I need to sort this out.


This is fairly easy to resolve based on the current rules.

<snip>
Because one of the minions is no longer ready, combat ends. But the other combatant still, utterly uncontroversially, plays damage prevention such as Skin of Rock to prevent the hand damage, even though combat is trying to end.


We agree, but what unsettles me is that that damage prevention window allows to play effects that would not have been possible to play otherwise.
For instance:

A plays nothing before range.
B plays Illusions of the Kindred.
A can't play Torn Signpost (combat has ended)

A plays Outside the Hourglass.
B plays Illusions of the Kindred.
There are 2 damage to prevent.
A passes the impulse. B plays Skin of Rock. A gets back the impulse and plays Torn Signpost. Etc.

The combat ends that was previously instantaneous now opens a step that is long enough to play other cards.
Prince of Paris, France
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Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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05 Jan 2018 14:30 #84763 by Sambomb
Replied by Sambomb on topic Illusions of the Kindred VS Outside the Hourglass
As a judge I would rule that the effect of combat ends occur after damage resolution so any combat cards that could handle the damage are still valid and all cards are fully handled in order.

In my example:
A play OtH, damage resolution step, impulse goes to B.
B play ItK, impulse goes to A.
A pass the impulse.
B still have to resolve the damage, don’t have any other cards to play, goes to torpor, impulse come back to A.
A play amaranth, taste or whatever.
Combat ends.

By ankha rulling, the lingering effects of ItK kicks in starting a new combat. I personally don’t agree with this because since B isn’t ready before the resolution of ItK the lingering effect should be canceled, similar to steal blood of a ally ( or first strike) vs hand strike of the opposing minion.
Archbishop of Itaocara
Prince ID #510

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05 Jan 2018 14:34 #84764 by kschaefer
Replied by kschaefer on topic Illusions of the Kindred VS Outside the Hourglass

We agree, but what unsettles me is that that damage prevention window allows to play effects that would not have been possible to play otherwise.
For instance:

A plays nothing before range.
B plays Illusions of the Kindred.
A can't play Torn Signpost (combat has ended)

A plays Outside the Hourglass.
B plays Illusions of the Kindred.
There are 2 damage to prevent.
A passes the impulse. B plays Skin of Rock. A gets back the impulse and plays Torn Signpost. Etc.

The combat ends that was previously instantaneous now opens a step that is long enough to play other cards.


Torn Signpost is not playable in the second sequence because you are no longer before range. The Combat Ends prematurely aborts the combat and alters the current step.

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