New round structure - OPTION B - we'd like your feedback!

Non-existant user wrote:

IG/SCE is a red herring. already has one reliable maneuver to come back to close, and needs it anyway against . The SCE deck would have to be able to reliably maneuver twice to be able to beat IG, and I cannot see how such a big combat package in a non-combat deck could work in a varied meta.

The IG change would make a difference against guns or , but in that case, it is an advantage for the deck to be able to cycle. It is not like they were going to stay close before seeing your IG anyway...

Overall, a very minor change.

Couldn't agree more.

IG is a niche card. It's power level has diminished over years, and was replaced by many other cards that override S:CE better than it, like Psyche! and Telepathic Tracking.

We really shouldn't concentrate on a single card with such a niche place in the game when considering combat as a whole.

Potence is in a very bad place and has been for ages. People love it, but it needs more support in other ways. I'd argue that the whole IG timing window discussion isn't what should be had here at all, but is a problem for another time (once it is decided what to do with combat as a whole).

I'd love to try this option B out, and will bring it up with our local meta. Most cards should be easy to convert. If we'll get practice games in, I'll try to write a thorough report.

Kraus wrote:

[IG is a niche card. It's power level has diminished over years, and was replaced by many other cards that override S:CE better than it, like Psyche! and Telepathic Tracking.

FWIIW IG and Psyche! both debuted in Jyhad.

Therefore saying that IG has been _replaced_ by Psyche! is odd...

Non-existant user wrote:

already has one reliable maneuver to come back to close, and needs it anyway against .

So to the situation we have already, where any combat is compelled to have 8+ TSP and 8+ IG you are suggesting to add requirement of 8+ Slams (or a second combat discipline) to even have an ability to deal any damage to noncombatant.

Still losing to because of Terror Frenzy.

It's a great way to move game forward!

Lönkka wrote:

FWIIW IG and Psyche! both debuted in Jyhad.

Therefore saying that IG has been _replaced_ by Psyche! is odd...

Kraus was quite active in my topic, literally dedicated to the invention of both this cards at Jyhad. So he know it, he just does not care.

Kraus wrote:

IG is a niche card. It's power level has diminished over years, and was replaced by many other cards that override S:CE better than it, like Psyche! and Telepathic Tracking.

Psyche! is better than Immortal Grapple? I don't think that's the case. Regardless, those two cards exist in "niche" form for a reason. They obviously exist to thwart S:CE. But, if you have too many kinds of cards to thwart S:CE, then combat becomes too effective: people will have no minions in their controlled region way too often. I think the balance is fine as is.

I'd argue that the whole IG timing window discussion isn't what should be had here at all, but is a problem for another time (once it is decided what to do with combat as a whole).

So, maybe I missed something, but I don't think the intent with these new combat round structures was to change combat at all. They were drafted precisely to clarify the timing of cards like IG. How did we get to a point where combat as a whole needs to change?

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Psyche! is better than Immortal Grapple? I don't think that's the case.

Technically psyche IS considerably better than grapple. Psyche counters S:CE regardless whether you are close or far (thus suiting other forms of combat besides melee, such as guns). Psyche counters exotic forms of combat end, such as rotschreck. IG doesn't. Instead of going to torpor, a new combat starts.

Even if you don't need it for anti-SCE, psyche functions as a press that trumps pressing out of combat. You can't press out of a new combat starting. IG's press is just a normal press.

Psyche has natural synergies with various cards, namely "once per combat" effects such as magnum's maneuver or flak jacket. IG doesn't really have synergies that couldn't be achieved otherwise (at least that I can think of right now.). You don't need IG to play disarm.

IG does have some benefits to it, such as trumping special strikes (dodges, straight-to-torpor strikes, etc ). It is useful in this way, but since you have to plan for aggravated handstrikes anyway when you play potence combat up close, this isn't a huge boon over psyche.

During past year, I've been moving toward combat-heavy decks. I've yet to build a deck that utilizes IG however...