file New round structure - OPTION B - we'd like your feedback!

21 May 2018 09:50 #87217 by LivesByProxy
I think this whole mess about combat is being needlessly obtuse. The game has a really nice format for organizing combat. Maneuver-Strike-Press. Those are your three steps, I don't think we need an 'Approach' step or a 'Leave' step. The card text should convey to players when the optimum time to play the card is without having to explicitly say it, and when it does explicitly tell the player, it does so in as few words as possible - and VTES already has a format that does this.

The format is "Strike: Do a thing / here are the details." You could minimize all this nonsense about "before range is determined" if it was simply "Maneuver: Do the thing." You play it during the maneuver step. The maneuver step is used to 'determine range' (why call the step 'determine range'? We don't call the strike step 'fighting step' or the press step 'chase sequence'.) Once both players decline to play a maneuver card, the maneuver step is over and range has been determined.

Same with Immortal Grapple. The card could just read, "Strike: Hand strike, and strikes that are not hand strikes can't be made." I think Brum suggested this change in this thread and I suggested it months ago in my Revamping VTES post. If you have the Priority or 'Impulse' as its called in VTES, you already trump the opponent's S:CE card they were planning on playing, because you choose your strike before they choose theirs.

What if Taste of Vitae were simply "Press: Do the ToV thing." You wouldn't need a clause about when to play it, because the card tells you in one word the exact step you can play it, the press step. If players decline to use presses or play Press: cards, then the combat is over.

Also, I should point out, because I can hear the objections already: There is a difference between Strike: and Strike, Maneuver: and Manuever, and Press: and Press. In each case the former tells you the step that it can be played, the latter is the keyword/action to do the thing.

Psyche! would look like, ":cel: Press." and :CEL: "Press: Begin another round of combat if both minions are still ready."

Shadow Step would be, ":obt: Maneuver." and ":OBT: Maneuver: Burn 2 blood to set the range for this round."

Outside the Hourglass, ":obf: Strike: Dodge." and ":tem: Maneuver, or dodge as a strike, with 1 optional maneuver." and ":TEM: Maneuver: Do 2 environmental damage on the opposing minion. Only one OtH can be played at superior each round."

Torn Signpost, ":pot: Maneuver: This vampire has strength of 2 this combat." and ":POT: Manuever: This vampire has a strength of 3 this combat."

Etc.Etc.Etc.

The only problem I can think of with the system this way is all the cards like Aid From Bats which say, "Strike: Do 2R damage, with 1 optional maneuver." and whatnot. The simple fix IMO would be to have the optional maneuvers only usuable on subsequent rounds, because declaring a strike before the Strike step just to use the optional maneuver the card gives is really as backwards as it gets.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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21 May 2018 10:13 #87218 by elotar

The game has a really nice format for organizing combat. Maneuver-Strike-Press.


This is a problem - rulebook got a nice format for organizing combat.

The real game as is has a completely different structure somewhere in the line of: Grapple - SCE - Strikes with small percentage of not so relevant cards (compare, for example, power of maneuver and SCE effects) played "before grapple" or "after strikes"

Efforts to make rulebook structure represent completely different one without "problems" are futile.

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:

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21 May 2018 10:22 #87219 by elotar


Same with Immortal Grapple. The card could just read, "Strike: Hand strike, and strikes that are not hand strikes can't be made." I think Brum suggested this change in this thread and I suggested it months ago in my Revamping VTES post. If you have the Priority or 'Impulse' as its called in VTES, you already trump the opponent's S:CE card they were planning on playing, because you choose your strike before they choose theirs.


Good example.

Even I have suggested such change, but I do not care about maintaining present combat structure.

But if you care about it, than it wont work this way - If you got priority then you just meet a problem that other strikes can't be played with it (which is still quite important for some decks), but in the situation when priority is on the other side it just fails in any possible sane rewording (both if trumping SCE played before or not).

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:

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21 May 2018 11:26 #87221 by Malachy

The format is "Strike: Do a thing / here are the details." You could minimize all this nonsense about "before range is determined" if it was simply "Maneuver: Do the thing." You play it during the maneuver step. The maneuver step is used to 'determine range' (why call the step 'determine range'? We don't call the strike step 'fighting step' or the press step 'chase sequence'.) Once both players decline to play a maneuver card, the maneuver step is over and range has been determined.

Same with Immortal Grapple. The card could just read, "Strike: Hand strike, and strikes that are not hand strikes can't be made." I think Brum suggested this change in this thread and I suggested it months ago in my Revamping VTES post. If you have the Priority or 'Impulse' as its called in VTES, you already trump the opponent's S:CE card they were planning on playing, because you choose your strike before they choose theirs.


I might be wrong, but if I understand this correctly, you can manevuer back and forth, then play Drawing Out The Beast? How about strikes? Currently any "Strike: do something" doesn't affect to current strike resolution regardless of who's acting (for example, the blocking minion can still play Majesty if the acting plays Withering). If immortal became something as Withering, would it work differently?

NC of Hungary

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21 May 2018 12:34 #87227 by Cyrus
There is no need to overly complicate keywords and change cards like that. If the round structure is to be changed it should be to something closely resembling the current game.

Reasonably, you could go with three phases. Determine range, strike and press.

Determine range got three sub-phases. Before maneuvers, maneuvers and post maneuvers (like IG).

Strike got three as well: Chose strike, during resolution of strike (claws, prevention) and post strike (like playing additional strikes, if so, repeat chose strike).

Press got two. Press and efter press (if combat is ending, such as psyche).

Screwing over Immortal Grapple by moving it to the maneuver phase or making it a strike is not a good idea. There is no need to dumb down the game.

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21 May 2018 18:19 - 21 May 2018 18:23 #87242 by LivesByProxy
@Elotar, @Cyrus: I'd rather see the cards made to resemble the rulebook more closely, because the Maneuver-Strike-Press format is really clean and simple (it's one of the best parts of the rules of the game).

It's the cards that are the problem, because the cards create 'sub-steps' only due to the way they are written. Why do these cards specify such timing detail? Will it really break the combat if you can play Torn Signpost during the Maneuver Step, as opposed to 'at the beginning of the round'? Why don't the 'Prevent damage' Fortitude :for: cards specify 'Play only after strikes are chosen' or something similar? What service does it do for the game to have such specificity? Does that specificity really matter?

Part of the options that Ankha is trying to give us is A) more clarity of the timing windows / round structure, or B] more flexible timing windows. I vote for the more flexibility in timing windows, but I think it can be done in a way that's also clear and concise and consistent (not dumbed down): just use the "Strike: ~Effect~" formatting on the cards to signal what step of combat it can be played in. It also cuts down on word text.

@Elotar:

If you got priority then you just meet a problem that other strikes can't be played with it (which is still quite important for some decks), but in the situation when priority is on the other side it just fails in any possible sane rewording (both if trumping SCE played before or not).

You're right. Hmmm... Combat Ends would seem to be a very powerful effect! Perhaps it would be better suited to the Maneuver Step:

:pot: Maneuver: Grapple. Only usable at close range. Strike cards that are not hand strikes may not be used this round (by either combatant). A vampire may play only one Immortal Grapple each round.

That way the effect 'happens' before the Strike Step, which is functionally what happens now, and is pretty much the exact change Ankha mentioned at the beginning of this thread.

@Malachy: See my response to Elotar above. Also, the "Strike: ~Effect~" model still works as VTES currently works with each player only able to declare 1 strike each. So while there could be cards that read, "Strike: +2handsize for the rest of combat" i.e. something that doesn't affect strike resolution, but occurs within the Strike Step.

The cards like Withering that read, "Strike: 2R damage" actually mean, "Strike: ranged strike for 2 damage." and the keyword strike counts towards combat resolution. Does that make sense? It is the difference between Strike: and strike. The first is the format for timing windows, the other is the keyword / action.

TL;DR: Use the Strike: formatting to signal the timing window. Bold the word Strike when referring to the timing window. Lowercase 'strike' refers to the actual strike that counts toward strike resolution.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.
Last edit: 21 May 2018 18:23 by LivesByProxy. Reason: clarity

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