file Correct time to use Heidelberg Castle, Germany for non acting player

04 Jun 2021 19:28 - 04 Jun 2021 19:29 #102393 by beslin igor
When non acting player get impulse for Heidelberg Castle, Germany?
I will give scenario from practice:
A take action,B block( B have any reteiner who give him intercept),combat end. A can play any unlock efect.  Can B get impulse now to move reteiner on another vampire,or him need to wait impulse same as impulse for Enkil Cog where B need wait to acting player finish all his actions?


Heidelberg Castle, Germany
Unique location.
Lock to move blood, equipment and/or retainers between any two ready vampires you control. Cannot be used during an action.  
Last edit: 04 Jun 2021 19:29 by beslin igor.

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04 Jun 2021 21:34 #102394 by Hakuron
You can use it after the resolution of an action.
(Check the rulings collected in the Codex of the Damned of reference: codex-of-the-damned.org/en/card-search.html?card=Heidelberg+Castle%2C+Germany)

National Coordinator Germany
nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

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07 Jun 2021 09:06 #102400 by Rémi
Dear all,

Due to "the sequencing explaination" of the new rulebook, I am not sure that "You can use it after the resolution of an action.".
I would say you can use it when the active player give the impulse to other players like it is necessary to use Enkil Cog for instance.

Regards,
Rémi.

I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (SPAIN). I was the Prince of Lyon (FRANCE) in 2003 :)
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07 Jun 2021 09:31 #102401 by Timo

Dear all,

Due to "the sequencing explaination" of the new rulebook, I am not sure that "You can use it after the resolution of an action.".
I would say you can use it when the active player give the impulse to other players like it is necessary to use Enkil Cog for instance.

Regards,
Rémi.

Enkil Cog is an action and is sequenced with other actions.

Heidelberg is a generic effect and is sequenced with every other generic effects usable in a specific windows.

When an action is finished, there is a phase before an other action can begin and in this phase everybody has the opportunity to play generic effects (heidelberg, barrens, Alexandra special etc...)

These effects must be ordered using the sequencing rules inside this phase so active player as many effect he wants and then other players clockwise etc...

Note that as far as I know, this term "generic effect" and this phase "between 2 actions" is not precisely defined in any occurence of the rulebook but it still works like that...

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07 Jun 2021 09:59 - 07 Jun 2021 11:26 #102402 by lip

When an action is finished, there is a phase before an other action can begin and in this phase everybody has the opportunity to play generic effects (heidelberg, barrens, Alexandra special etc...)

No, I do not think this is the case. Impulse goes around during the action, after it resolves. This is where you can play for example Cat's Guidance or use Dreams of the Sphinx or The Barrens. But this is still during the action, or you would not be able to use a reaction. So you cannot use Heidelberg because card text forbids it. If you are the acting Methuselah, you get the impulse after action and you can either use Heidelberg or begin another action, but the impulse does not go around the table between actions, or you could use Enkil Cog between two actions.

The Enkil Cog effect and Heidelberg effect are both effects from cards in play that cannot be used during an action: the first because it declares an action, the second because card text forbids it. There is no way the impulse works differently in my opinion.

Note that as far as I know, this term "generic effect" and this phase "between 2 actions" is not precisely defined in any occurence of the rulebook but it still works like that...

I don't think it does. I think we've been playing it wrong the whole time 

TLDR; I would have said you have to wait for the end of the acting Methuselah's minion phase to use Heidelberg's effect (unless it is your minion phase of course).

APPENDIX - Wait, Timo is right
I did some research and Timo has it right (well, no surprise there ): historically there was an "in-between actions" window, at least if you refer to this LSJ post . The question is: is this still a thing? Or did it disappear with the new rulebook?

The new rulebook is very clear and streamlined, and even manages to explain Enkil Cog timing with no external ruling required ("At every stage, the acting Methuselah always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, they may play another and another." and "Each action must be resolved (successful or blocked) before another action can be performed."). I think it should be kept that way: this "in-between-actions-where-you-cannot-declare-an-action" window is clumsy at best.

I would add that this window looks unmanageable in competitive play. You will either have to ask your opponent to pass (pointing out they can use Heidelberg and slowing the game), or accept that he is within his rights to ask for a rollback if you declare a rush or a bleed and he needs the blood.

I feel we need a new ruling, one way or another.
Last edit: 07 Jun 2021 11:26 by lip.
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07 Jun 2021 10:05 - 07 Jun 2021 10:13 #102403 by lip

You can use it after the resolution of an action.
(Check the rulings collected in the Codex of the Damned of reference: codex-of-the-damned.org/en/card-search.html?card=Heidelberg+Castle%2C+Germany)

Please point out the ruling you're referring to, because I do not see it there ☺︎ The ruling there specifically states:

Cannot be used before damage is inflicted after action resolution (eg. Force of will, Daring the Dawn): this is still during the action.  [ANK 20171124]

Last edit: 07 Jun 2021 10:13 by lip.
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