file Correct time to use Heidelberg Castle, Germany for non acting player

07 Jun 2021 10:27 - 07 Jun 2021 10:33 #102404 by lip
Last edit: 07 Jun 2021 10:33 by lip.

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07 Jun 2021 11:10 - 07 Jun 2021 11:12 #102405 by Timo

APPENDIX - Wait, Timo is right
I did some research and Timo has it right (well, no surprise there

): historically there was an "in-between actions" window, at least if you refer to this LSJ post . The question is: is this still a thing? Or did it disappear with the new rulebook?

The new rulebook is very clear and streamlined, and even manages to explain Enkil Cog timing with no external ruling required ("At every stage, the acting Methuselah always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, they may play another and another." and "Each action must be resolved (successful or blocked) before another action can be performed."). I think it should be kept that way: this "in-between-actions-where-you-cannot-declare-an-action" window is clumsy at best.

I feel we need a new ruling way, one way or another.

Well, my opinion is that ruling it that you cannot use heidelberg between 2 actions would be a huge nerf to that card when used defensively.

It would mean that you cannot transfer your tower of raven spies to another minion after a succesfull block (and it has been used like that since for ever !).

(codex-of-the-damned.org/en/deck-search.html?cards=Raven+Spy%7CHeidelberg+Castle%2C+Germany&id=2k4ahrimanes gives 36 results in the TWDA)
Last edit: 07 Jun 2021 11:12 by Timo.

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07 Jun 2021 11:19 #102406 by Rémi

I feel we need a new ruling way, one way or another.

Well, my opinion is that ruling it that you cannot use heidelberg between 2 actions would be a huge nerf to that card when used defensively.
 

I agree, I have changed my vision of this card since the new rulebook arrived.
Useless comment: I would be happy to get that card back :D

Regards,
Rémi.

I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (SPAIN). I was the Prince of Lyon (FRANCE) in 2003 :)

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07 Jun 2021 15:34 #102407 by lip

Well, my opinion is that ruling it that you cannot use heidelberg between 2 actions would be a huge nerf to that card when used defensively.

I cannot argue with that, it would definitely be a nerf. I still think that the current rules are elegant and having to distinguish declaring an action from playing a card or using an effect just to allow this specific use of one card is over-complicated.

And I maintain that this is broken for competitive play. In my view it's a point in favour of the nerf.

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08 Jun 2021 09:19 #102417 by drnlmza

The new rulebook is very clear and streamlined, and even manages to explain Enkil Cog timing with no external ruling required ("At every stage, the acting Methuselah always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, they may play another and another." and "Each action must be resolved (successful or blocked) before another action can be performed."). I think it should be kept that way: this "in-between-actions-where-you-cannot-declare-an-action" window is clumsy at best.


Are you arguing that using Heidelberg, or all the other things that can happen between actions, is somewhow not an effect as covered by the rulebook?

Also, how does this give the acting Methuselah the ability to block other Methuselahs from using such effects? The rulebook merely states that the acting Methuselah gets the first bite at using them, and then the opportunity moves to the others. Not playing a card before range doesn't stop the opponent playing Torn Signpost, for example, even though the new rulebook doesn't discuss this in any depth.

I would add that this window looks unmanageable in competitive play. You will either have to ask your opponent to pass (pointing out they can use Heidelberg and slowing the game), or accept that he is within his rights to ask for a rollback if you declare a rush or a bleed and he needs the blood.

 


VtES is already a game with lots of cases where careful, correct sequencing and quick play are at odds with each other (Direct Intervention & Sudden Reversal being the major reasons for that). This case hardly makes that worse.

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South Africa

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08 Jun 2021 13:10 - 08 Jun 2021 13:12 #102421 by lip

Are you arguing that using Heidelberg, or all the other things that can happen between actions, is somewhow not an effect as covered by the rulebook?
 

No, I probably was not clear. I am arguing that there is no window between the end of an action and the beginning of the next: the action ends with everybody passing on the impulse. Impulse goes back on the acting Methuselah. He either starts a new action or passes on his minion phase.

Also, how does this give the acting Methuselah the ability to block other Methuselahs from using such effects? The rulebook merely states that the acting Methuselah gets the first bite at using them, and then the opportunity moves to the others. 

Absolutely. My point is exactly that: the acting Methuselah choose first. If he choses to begin an action, then passes the impulse, you can use any effect you like. But not Heidelberg because it cannot be used during an action. And not Enkil Cog because an action is underway already.
Last edit: 08 Jun 2021 13:12 by lip.

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