question-circle Rotschreck and non-strike Agravated Damage

26 Oct 2021 15:17 #103668 by William_Feitosa
Greeting Fellow Mathuselah,

We had a discussion in our playgroup abbout Rotschreck and non-strike agravated damage.

As i read the card in its current Writting i undestood that you could use it in the following situation:

During your predator turn he bleeds you, you manage to block it but he uses a Dawn Operation.

In the First round of combat you use Outside the Hourglass and try to use Rotschreck.

But as i searched the rulings i found :
Cannot be played in response to aggravated damage done from "environmental" sources. [RTR 19961113]

But as you open the link to that rulling you read:
"QUESTION: 7/01/96: Why can't you play Rotschreck in response to
aggaravated damage dealt by non-strike cards (like DBR, Pulled Fangs,
etc.)?

ANSWER: You can play Rotschreck in response to aggaravated damage dealt
by non-strike cards."

So i need a clarification, is it possible to use Rotschreck when a non-strike source, like Outside the Hourglass, is the source dealing it?

Name: Rötschreck
[Jyhad:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PG, BH:PTr2, KMW:PB, LoB:PA, Third:PTz]
Cardtype: Master
Master: out-of-turn. Frenzy.
Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is locked and sent to torpor. This vampire does not unlock as normal. During this vampire's next unlock phase, burn this card.
Artist: Mike Danza

Name: Outside the Hourglass
[HttB:C/B2]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Temporis/Obfuscate
[obf] Strike: dodge.
[tem] Maneuver, or strike: dodge, with 1 optional maneuver.
[TEM] Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at superior each round.
Artist: Jim Di Bartolo

Name: Dawn Operation
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PG2, LoB:PA2, KoT:U, HttB:PSal2]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Fortitude
[for] If this action is blocked, all damage inflicted to vampires in the resulting combat is aggravated. Any vampire attempting to block may now choose not to block.
[FOR] As above, but vampires attempting to block cannot back out.
Artist: Christopher Rush; Brian LeBlanc

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26 Oct 2021 15:54 - 14 Jan 2022 09:09 #103671 by Ankha
Cardtext, important parts in bold:


Name: Rötschreck
[Jyhad:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PG, BH:PTr2, KMW:PB, LoB:PA, Third:PTz]
Cardtype: Master
Master: out-of-turn. Frenzy.
Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is locked and sent to torpor. This vampire does not unlock as normal. During this vampire's next unlock phase, burn this card.
Artist: Mike Danza

Name: Outside the Hourglass
[HttB:C/B2]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Temporis/Obfuscate
[obf] Strike: dodge.
[tem] Maneuver, or strike: dodge, with 1 optional maneuver.
[TEM] Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at superior each round.
Artist: Jim Di Bartolo


Since the vampire playing OtHG inflicts 2 (aggravated due to Dawn Operation) damage, Rötschreck can be played.
This has been reverted: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/79432-rotschreck-and-non-strike-agravated-damage?start=18#104475

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 14 Jan 2022 09:09 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Rémi

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26 Oct 2021 16:30 #103675 by beslin igor
Damage from Outside the Hourglass are damage from vampire,not enviromental damage.
After DBR Rötschreck can be played,because is that strike damage.

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13 Jan 2022 08:03 #104457 by lip
Oh, can I get confirmation that this ruling reverts [RTR 20041202] ? Or had that been reverted already at an earlier point? Or did I misunderstood the RTR? Thanks in advance.

Rötschreck (Rotschreck) is only usable during strike declaration when a
strike that deals aggravated damage targets a vampire (may still be played
after both minions have announce their strikes). In particular, it is not
usable for effects that resolve when played (which includes most non-strike
effects), like Pulled Fangs under a Dawn Operation.

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13 Jan 2022 08:43 - 14 Jan 2022 09:10 #104458 by Ankha

Oh, can I get confirmation that this ruling reverts [RTR 20041202] ? Or had that been reverted already at an earlier point? Or did I misunderstood the RTR? Thanks in advance.

Rötschreck (Rotschreck) is only usable during strike declaration when a
strike that deals aggravated damage targets a vampire (may still be played
after both minions have announce their strikes). In particular, it is not
usable for effects that resolve when played (which includes most non-strike
effects), like Pulled Fangs under a Dawn Operation.


At that time, there were no other way a minion could inflict damage during combat than by using a strike.
The RTR points out that Rötschreck doesn't work with damage not inflicted by the minion, such as Pulled Fangs.

So the whole Rötschreck section of the RTR is outdated and should be ignored.
See: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/79432-rotschreck-and-non-strike-agravated-damage?start=18#104475

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 14 Jan 2022 09:10 by Ankha.

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13 Jan 2022 09:29 - 13 Jan 2022 11:44 #104459 by inm8

Cardtext, important parts in bold:


Name: Rötschreck
[Jyhad:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PG, BH:PTr2, KMW:PB, LoB:PA, Third:PTz]
Cardtype: Master
Master: out-of-turn. Frenzy.
Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is locked and sent to torpor. This vampire does not unlock as normal. During this vampire's next unlock phase, burn this card.
Artist: Mike Danza

Name: Outside the Hourglass
[HttB:C/B2]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Temporis/Obfuscate
[obf] Strike: dodge.
[tem] Maneuver, or strike: dodge, with 1 optional maneuver.
[TEM] Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at superior each round.
Artist: Jim Di Bartolo


Since the vampire playing OtHG inflicts 2 (aggravated due to Dawn Operation) damage, Rötschreck can be played.



I don't think Rötschreck can be played on the basis that Rötschreck is an out-of-turn master and thereby is only playable by the non-acting player which means that if the non-acting player plays Outside the Hourglass while under the effect of Dawn Operation (played by the acting player) the impulse goes back to the acting player to either take the damage or prevent it not giving the non-acting player the opportunity to play Rötschreck. (in the scenario given)

I could be wrong in my understanding of the priority system, but if I'm not this means that technically the only time Rötschreck can be played is when the non-acting player has the impulse which means:
1)while at pre-range if and when the impulse is given to the non-acting player which earlier in the pre-range step has played a damage (sourced from the minion) inflicting effect and the acting player hasn´t yet taken or prevented the damage.
2)before the non-acting player announces/declares his minion´s strike but after that the acting player has announced/declared his minion's strike.
3)after both players have had their minions announce/declare their strikes and after the acting player plays an effect that modifies the damage to aggravated.

Now if the acting player for example played OtH as a response to the OtH of the non-acting player then the impulse would go back to the non-acting player and in this case (whenever the acting player does anything else in the pre-range step than taking the damage or preventing it) Rötschrek would be playable.

Oh, can I get confirmation that this ruling reverts [RTR 20041202] ? Or had that been reverted already at an earlier point? Or did I misunderstood the RTR? Thanks in advance.

Rötschreck (Rotschreck) is only usable during strike declaration when a
strike that deals aggravated damage targets a vampire (may still be played
after both minions have announce their strikes). In particular, it is not
usable for effects that resolve when played (which includes most non-strike
effects), like Pulled Fangs under a Dawn Operation.


At that time, there were no other way a minion could inflict damage during combat than by using a strike.
The RTR points out that Rötschreck doesn't work with damage not inflicted by the minion, such as Pulled Fangs.

So the whole Rötschreck section of the RTR is outdated and should be ignored.


I don´t think the RTR stands any longer in regards to Rötschreck and a new ruling and reversal of the RTR seems relevant.
Last edit: 13 Jan 2022 11:44 by inm8.

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