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question-circle Rotschreck and non-strike Agravated Damage

13 Jan 2022 19:59 - 13 Jan 2022 21:22 #104469 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Rotschreck and non-strike Agravated Damage

Cardtext, important parts in bold:


Name: Rötschreck
[Jyhad:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PG, BH:PTr2, KMW:PB, LoB:PA, Third:PTz]
Cardtype: Master
Master: out-of-turn. Frenzy.
Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is locked and sent to torpor. This vampire does not unlock as normal. During this vampire's next unlock phase, burn this card.
Artist: Mike Danza

Name: Outside the Hourglass
[HttB:C/B2]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Temporis/Obfuscate
[obf] Strike: dodge.
[tem] Maneuver, or strike: dodge, with 1 optional maneuver.
[TEM] Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at superior each round.
Artist: Jim Di Bartolo


Since the vampire playing OtHG inflicts 2 (aggravated due to Dawn Operation) damage, Rötschreck can be played.



I don't think Rötschreck can be played on the basis that Rötschreck is an out-of-turn master

This is irrelevant.


Don´t agree with you because it limits who can play it and when...obviously if you twist the scenario for it to be incorrect so you get to be right...would have been better to expand on it ...but anyway

and thereby is only playable by the non-acting player which means that

This is wrong. If the vampire is acting during another Methuselah's turn, you can control the acting minion and still play a master OOT.

...sure in the above scenario you are correct

if the non-acting player plays Outside the Hourglass while under the effect of Dawn Operation (played by the acting player) the impulse goes back to the acting player to either take the damage or prevent it not giving the non-acting player the opportunity to play Rötschreck. (in the scenario given)

Even in that scenario, if the acting player has nothing to play in the "attempt to inflict damage" window, the impulse goes to the other player so they can play their card in that window.


The above insinuates that priority is followed and impulse is/can be passed back and forth, which I think is great, but was as many others under the impression damage had to be handled before passing impulse...happy to be wrong and see this align with the strike/damage handling.

Am I understanding it correctly that the pre-range damage and prevention is handled exactly the same as one would with the strikes?
meaning that there are 2 sub-steps to the pre-range step
1) play and resolve pre-range cards/effects (excluding damage) following priority and pass impulse per normal back and forth.
2) resolve damage if any is inflicted during the pre-range sub-step 1, again following priority and pass impulse per normal back and forth.
Last edit: 13 Jan 2022 21:22 by inm8.

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13 Jan 2022 20:18 - 13 Jan 2022 20:48 #104470 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Rotschreck and non-strike Agravated Damage

Just to be clear, when playing Rötschreck on Outside the Hourglass, the damage of Outside the Hourglass is not inflicted then?


The ruling on KRCG is worded as damage is applied even if combat is ended prematurely and that insinuates that prevention isn´t possible to be played, [ANK 20180104]

Might need to review the other OtH rulings to make it all clear.

The damage is applied even if the combat ends prematurely (eg. Illusions of the Kindred)


After reading the forum post it is unclear to me if that is what Ankha actually is saying there or not...it isn't clear whether prevention is not chosen or not possible...also seems no final conclusion and ruling was reached in regards to whether prevention can be played or not after a combat end is played in the pre-range step for the OtH damage.

I would say no damage is inflicted if it is to align with how it is handled during strikes which seem to be the ruling we are getting. (a good one I think)
On the other hand, this would mean that a combat end resolves differently for OtH than it does for Weather Control and would mean that the pending damage inflicted wouldn´t be handled and ignored.
Last edit: 13 Jan 2022 20:48 by inm8.

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13 Jan 2022 22:41 #104471 by Yomyael
Replied by Yomyael on topic Rotschreck and non-strike Agravated Damage
Regarding Rötschreck being an out of turn master and it might be difficult to play it with dawn operation and outside the hourglass: keep in mind that Rötschreck doesn't care about who controlls the vampire that attempts to inflict aggravated damage. It might be played by the methuselah controlling the vampire that would take the aggravated damage, or by a methuselah who doesn't controll a vampire involved in the combat at all.

Concerning why the damage of outside the hourglass mght be inflicted: the difference to strikes is that the card resolves immediately. Strikes do not resolve until the strike resolution phase. However, since Rötschreck ends the combat before the strike resolution phase, strike damage is not applied (but attempted since the strike was chosen). Outside the Hourglass creates a more complicated situation, since the "attempt" is carried out immediately and not delayed like a strike. That's why it's handled in the way for ending the combat prematurely with Illusions of the Kindred in the post you linked, and that's why it might be handled the same way for Rötschreck, but I guess we need to hear Ankha on this.
Prince of Bonn, Germany

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14 Jan 2022 08:12 - 14 Jan 2022 08:13 #104473 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Rotschreck and non-strike Agravated Damage

This is wrong. If the vampire is acting during another Methuselah's turn, you can control the acting minion and still play a master OOT.


I think there are some possible cases to consider here.

1.)
Player A does an action and plays dawn operation.
Player B blocks and in prerange plays Ooth and rötschreck

2.) Third player plays the rötschreck

3.) player A does an enkil cog rush, plays dawn operation, Ooth and rötschreck.
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
Last edit: 14 Jan 2022 08:13 by Bloodartist.

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14 Jan 2022 08:23 - 14 Jan 2022 08:23 #104474 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Rotschreck and non-strike Agravated Damage


The ruling on KRCG is worded as damage is applied even if combat is ended prematurely and that insinuates that prevention isn´t possible to be played, [ANK 20180104]


I think you misread the post you are referring to. That was a specific scenario meant to highlight the issue with illusions of kindred. It doesn't imply that Ooth damage is unpreventable. Just that the vampire in that case chose not to prevent it.
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
Last edit: 14 Jan 2022 08:23 by Bloodartist.

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14 Jan 2022 09:01 #104475 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Rotschreck and non-strike Agravated Damage
After a good night's sleep, I've decided to reconsider:
The 2004 RTR says:

Rötschreck (Rotschreck) is only usable during strike declaration when a strike that deals aggravated damage targets a vampire (may still be played after both minions have announce their strikes). In particular, it is not usable for effects that resolve when played (which includes most non-strike effects), like Pulled Fangs under a Dawn Operation.


The idea behind is that non-strike cards that inflict damage resolve immediately and inflict their damage immediately. "Attempting" to inflict damage with those cards is somehow meaningless since they always succeed.
On the other hand, damage-dealing strikes are played then resolved is another step. "Attempting" to inflict damage with those cards has a meaning: since there's a gap between the declaration and the resolution, and since the strike may not resolve (because the opponent plays a strike: combat ends etc.), the minion is attempting to inflict damage and may not be succesful.

So "attempting" implies (and that's what the RTR says) that a strike is involved. I don't want to introduce the notion that damage that is inflicted right away (Outside the Hourglass, Pulled Fangs) goes through an "attempt to inflict damage" window which brings nothing but complexity.

Therefore, Rötschreck will have from now on the following clarification/errata:

Rötschreck
Cardtype: Master
Out-of-turn. Frenzy.
Put this card on a vampire in combat when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her {with a strike} (whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not). Combat ends. This vampire is locked and sent to torpor. This vampire does not unlock as normal. Burn this card during this vampire's unlock phase.

The consequence is that the 2004 RTR is still valid, and I revert both Floppy's and my ruling:
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/9048-domain-of-evernight-outside-the-hourglass-vs-carrion-crows-rotschreck?start=6#9123
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/9048-domain-of-evernight-outside-the-hourglass-vs-carrion-crows-rotschreck?start=0#9050

It doesn't change other rulings about how to handle damage from Outside the Hourglass.
Prince of Paris, France
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