question-circle Rotschreck and non-strike Agravated Damage

13 Jan 2022 11:21 - 13 Jan 2022 11:30 #104460 by lip

Oh, can I get confirmation that this ruling reverts [RTR 20041202] ? Or had that been reverted already at an earlier point? Or did I misunderstood the RTR? Thanks in advance.

Rötschreck (Rotschreck) is only usable during strike declaration when a
strike that deals aggravated damage targets a vampire (may still be played
after both minions have announce their strikes). In particular, it is not
usable for effects that resolve when played (which includes most non-strike
effects), like Pulled Fangs under a Dawn Operation.


At that time, there were no other way a minion could inflict damage during combat than by using a strike.
The RTR points out that Rötschreck doesn't work with damage not inflicted by the minion, such as Pulled Fangs.

So the whole Rötschreck section of the RTR is outdated and should be ignored.


I don't get your answer. Pulled Fangs damage is inflicted by the minion (card text) is it not?

Only usable at close range at the end of a round of combat in which this minion successfully inflicted more damage than the opposing vampire. Not usable by a minion being burned or going into torpor.

Put this card on the opposing vampire, and this minion inflicts 1 point of damage on them. The attached vampire cannot hunt. Any vampire(s) can burn this card with two +1 stealth actions. If the attached vampire must hunt and cannot, they go into torpor. A vampire can have only 1 Pulled Fangs.


AFAICT the card text was already that at the time of the RTR (2004), and has not changed since.
Last edit: 13 Jan 2022 11:30 by lip.

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13 Jan 2022 11:52 #104461 by lip
Digging a little bit more, it seems that Pascal ruled already in 2011 that you can play Rotschreck on OtH ( www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/9048-domain-of-evernight-outside-the-hourglass-vs-carrion-crows-rotschreck?start=6#9123 ), but this was already a direct contradiction of the 2004 RTR, which carefully errated Rotschreck to do the exact opposite... Not sure if this was intended or a lapse.

If the 2004 Errata is reverted, and you can play Rotschreck on non-strikes, that's okay. Just want to make it clear for future searches ☺︎

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13 Jan 2022 15:49 #104462 by Bloodartist


If the 2004 Errata is reverted, and you can play Rotschreck on non-strikes, that's okay. Just want to make it clear for future searches ☺︎


I don't understand why you couldn't, since the cardtext itself makes no mention of strikes. All that matters is that the damage is inflicted by the minion and is not environmental.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



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13 Jan 2022 16:15 #104463 by Ankha

Cardtext, important parts in bold:


Name: Rötschreck
[Jyhad:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PG, BH:PTr2, KMW:PB, LoB:PA, Third:PTz]
Cardtype: Master
Master: out-of-turn. Frenzy.
Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is locked and sent to torpor. This vampire does not unlock as normal. During this vampire's next unlock phase, burn this card.
Artist: Mike Danza

Name: Outside the Hourglass
[HttB:C/B2]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Temporis/Obfuscate
[obf] Strike: dodge.
[tem] Maneuver, or strike: dodge, with 1 optional maneuver.
[TEM] Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at superior each round.
Artist: Jim Di Bartolo


Since the vampire playing OtHG inflicts 2 (aggravated due to Dawn Operation) damage, Rötschreck can be played.



I don't think Rötschreck can be played on the basis that Rötschreck is an out-of-turn master

This is irrelevant.

and thereby is only playable by the non-acting player which means that

This is wrong. If the vampire is acting during another Methuselah's turn, you can control the acting minion and still play a master OOT.

if the non-acting player plays Outside the Hourglass while under the effect of Dawn Operation (played by the acting player) the impulse goes back to the acting player to either take the damage or prevent it not giving the non-acting player the opportunity to play Rötschreck. (in the scenario given)

Even in that scenario, if the acting player has nothing to play in the "attempt to inflict damage" window, the impulse goes to the other player so they can play their card in that window.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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13 Jan 2022 16:21 - 14 Jan 2022 09:11 #104465 by Ankha

Digging a little bit more, it seems that Pascal ruled already in 2011 that you can play Rotschreck on OtH ( www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/9048-domain-of-evernight-outside-the-hourglass-vs-carrion-crows-rotschreck?start=6#9123 ), but this was already a direct contradiction of the 2004 RTR, which carefully errated Rotschreck to do the exact opposite... Not sure if this was intended or a lapse.


Rötschreck was reprinted since then, but the errata doesn't appear, so let's consider the 2004 RTR about it is no longer valid.
See www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/79432-rotschreck-and-non-strike-agravated-damage?start=18#104475

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 14 Jan 2022 09:11 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: lip

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13 Jan 2022 18:00 #104466 by lip
Just to be clear, when playing Rötschreck on Outside the Hourglass, the damage of Outside the Hourglass is not inflicted then?

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