Shadow Court Satyr ruling reversal?

kschaefer wrote:

However, Satyrs can use cards as a vampire `once each combat` still restricts it to combats that the Satyr is involved in, in the same way that Prejudice's special can only be used when he's bleeding.

The Prejudice comparison seems wrong to me because the wording “Prejudice may remove … to get +2 bleed for the current action.” is what makes it only applicable to its own bleed.

kschaefer wrote:

'Once each X' is by default an X that the minion is involved in.

As this isn’t in the rulebook do you have a ruling for this assumption?

If the above is correct I understand and thank you for bringing this to light.

Per the above logic Okulos “Once each turn, Okulos can burn 1 blood to draw 1 card (discard down afterward).” would only be able to draw a card on his own turn which isn’t the case.

inm8 wrote:

kschaefer wrote:

However, Satyrs can use cards as a vampire `once each combat` still restricts it to combats that the Satyr is involved in, in the same way that Prejudice's special can only be used when he's bleeding.

The Prejudice comparison seems wrong to me because the wording “Prejudice may remove … to get +2 bleed for the current action.” is what makes it only applicable to its own bleed.

"Once each action, Prejudice may remove an ally or retainer in your prey's ash heap from the game to get +2 bleed for the current action." By your logic about the way Satyrs work we could assume that he can do it on any actions, but we know you can only gain bleed if you are bleeding, so it's limited to his bleed.

I don't see how "Once each action" (which you failed to quote) and "Once each combat" should have parallel differences. You can use one to help understand the other. The best way to parse the complex rules of VTES is analogically.

inm8 wrote:

kschaefer wrote:

'Once each X' is by default an X that the minion is involved in.

As this isn’t in the rulebook do you have a ruling for this assumption?

Nope. Not going to parse the newsgroup for it. If we need some extra clarity there, Ankha can give it.

inm8 wrote:

Per the above logic Okulos “Once each turn, Okulos can burn 1 blood to draw 1 card (discard down afterward).” would only be able to draw a card on his own turn which isn’t the case.

Okulos is involved in every turn that he's in play on the table. He always has the option to do things even when it's not your turn.

kschaefer wrote:

"Once each action, Prejudice may remove an ally or retainer in your prey's ash heap from the game to get +2 bleed for the current action." By your logic about the way Satyrs work we could assume that he can do it on any actions, but we know you can only gain bleed if you are bleeding, so it's limited to his bleed.

By my logic "Once each action" isn´t read in isolation.

Per my logic in the case of Prejudice because of the complete text of the card, the rules about when bleed boost can be played and whoms bleed the ability can boost it can´t be used more than once for Prejudice own bleed action.

This portion "Once each action" allows Prejudice to use the ability more than once as long as the bleed action didn´t reach resolution and therefore doesn't count towards NRA.

kschaefer wrote:

I don't see how "Once each action" (which you failed to quote) and "Once each combat" should have parallel differences. You can use one to help understand the other. The best way to parse the complex rules of VTES is analogically.

I didn´t "fail" to quote anything.

I intentionally left "Once each action" out as the point was about why it is only usable on Prejudice's own bleed action which is in my opinion not because of the mentioned "'Once each X' is by default an X that the minion is involved in." limitation but because of the mentioned "do x to y" wording of the ability.

For me, "Once each X" isn´t the only relevant part, I think all of the card text is relevant to determine its function.

kschaefer wrote:

Nope. Not going to parse the newsgroup for it. If we need some extra clarity there, Ankha can give it.

Fine that you don´t have a ruling nor want to look for one.
Ankha, as you said can give one or overrule a previous one.

Just out of curiosity, is the argument/rationale based on a ruling you have seen, or is it an assumption on how you believe it to function?

kschaefer wrote:

Okulos is involved in every turn that he's in play on the table. He always has the option to do things even when it's not your turn.

The involvement is limited and enabled by the rules and the card text that overrule the rules.

The point was about your statement that explicit text is required to allow the ability to be used on someone else's combat, action, or turn.

"Once each turn" is the explicit text that allows it in the case of Okulos
"Once each combat" is what I´m saying allows it in the case of Satyr.

Both the above explicitly mean every turn and combat respectively because there is no other text on the cards that limits/restrict their reach.
Satyr´s text used to limit the reach of the ability to combats that Satyr was involved in when the text was "Once during combat" which is no longer the case.

"Once each turn" has been ruled to mean every turn and not just one's own.
Similarly one can assume that "Once each combat" means every combat and not just one's own.



To be clear I'm saying that Satyr can only do something on another combat if the combat card on him allows it, e.g. Heaven´s Gate. Because Satyr´s own ability even though it is usable on all combats it doesn´t provide the overruling of having to be one of the combatants to be able to play combat cards.

Ankha wrote:

Correct.
"In combat", "During combat", "Once each combat"... all imply that the minion is involved in combat.
The Satyr can play the combat card only when he's involved in combat.

"Once each combat" per the English language doesn´t imply that the minion has to be involved.

"Once each X" per the English language doesn´t imply involvement

To me, this is "vtes English" being created which is fine by me and should be added to the rulebook. Please be explicit about it here so we have a rulings refrence

Please also clarify involvement....a minion in play is involved in what exactly?