file Lorenzo Detuono and Imposing Phantasm

25 May 2022 19:43 #105318 by inm8

Is "After combat ends" and "at the end of combat" the same time window?

No.

If not which one resolves first? If yes does the player get to order the effects?

"At the end of combat" first (still in combat), then "after combat" (no longer in combat).



Question on the above rulings,
Psyche!´s original wording was "at the end of a combat" and was considered to be played "after combat"/outside of combat (references in the linked rulings below),
is this to be taken as a ruling that "at the end of combat" no longer means "after combat"?

LSJ wrote:
Psyche! is played after combat. See the online rulings list.


LSJ wrote:
Note: superior Psyche! is played at the end of combat (so,
technically, after combat) by card text, so can still be used after
a strike: end combat.

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27 May 2022 21:14 #105325 by beslin igor

Is "After combat ends" and "at the end of combat" the same time window?

No.

If not which one resolves first? If yes does the player get to order the effects?

"At the end of combat" first (still in combat), then "after combat" (no longer in combat).



Question on the above rulings,
Psyche!´s original wording was "at the end of a combat" and was considered to be played "after combat"/outside of combat (references in the linked rulings below),
is this to be taken as a ruling that "at the end of combat" no longer means "after combat"?

LSJ wrote:
Psyche! is played after combat. See the online rulings list.


LSJ wrote:
Note: superior Psyche! is played at the end of combat (so,
technically, after combat) by card text, so can still be used after
a strike: end combat.


But Psyche text and rules are changes after LSJ time,and Psyche is played during end of round now

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27 May 2022 23:57 #105326 by inm8

But Psyche text and rules are changes after LSJ time,and Psyche is played during end of round now


The question isn’t about Psyche! but about the ruling Ankha gave for the meaning and timing of the phrasing “at the end of combat”.

LSJ ruled that “at the end of combat” (that was used in the original text of Psyche!) meant and had its timing “after combat”/outside of combat which the below isn’t aligned with.


Is "After combat ends" and "at the end of combat" the same time window?

No.

If not which one resolves first? If yes does the player get to order the effects?

"At the end of combat" first (still in combat), then "after combat" (no longer in combat).

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01 Jun 2022 07:29 #105365 by inm8
Found another ruling from LSJ where he explicitly states the timing window of Psyche! (old wording: at the end of a combat) and Jalal Sayad (old wording: after completing combat) are the same.

LSJ wrote:
> just asking again here (since i did'n get answered elsewhere on this thread)
> :
>
> "at the end of a combat"
> (psyche)
> and
> "after completing combat"
> (jalal sayad, akram )
>
> represent the same time segment?

Psyche! has been ruled to be played after combat, as stated many times
already, yes.
After combat has the same timing as after combat, yes.



Ankha can you please confirm that your ruling in this thread changes the timing of "at the end of combat" and "after combat" to be two different once and overrules previous rulings.

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01 Jun 2022 08:25 - 01 Jun 2022 08:26 #105367 by Ankha

Found another ruling from LSJ where he explicitly states the timing window of Psyche! (old wording: at the end of a combat) and Jalal Sayad (old wording: after completing combat) are the same.

LSJ wrote:
> just asking again here (since i did'n get answered elsewhere on this thread)
> :
>
> "at the end of a combat"
> (psyche)
> and
> "after completing combat"
> (jalal sayad, akram )
>
> represent the same time segment?

Psyche! has been ruled to be played after combat, as stated many times
already, yes.
After combat has the same timing as after combat, yes.



Ankha can you please confirm that your ruling in this thread changes the timing of "at the end of combat" and "after combat" to be two different once and overrules previous rulings.


"At the end of combat" can mean different things, for instance it can happen during combat ( EMP vs Heaven's Gate ):

So my ruling is only about Lorenzo Detuono. I'm working on the different cases, but this is still in progress.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 01 Jun 2022 08:26 by Ankha.

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01 Jun 2022 16:01 - 01 Jun 2022 16:15 #105369 by inm8


"At the end of combat" can mean different things, for instance it can happen during combat ( EMP vs Heaven's Gate ):


Not sure but the linked ruling seems to be incorrect, it doesnt point to anything related to Heaven´s Gate but about EMP vs Left for Dead where again "at end of combat" on the text of EMP is ruled to happen after combat and thereby cannot be saved by Left for Dead.

>> But since the Patient should be killed by damage before his ability
>> kicks in (since he is using a hand strike, the opposing minion's
>> probable hand strike for 1 will kill him), Left for Dead will save him
>> from the damage-death, but leave him ready to still trigger his
>> special-ability-death.
>>
>> Of course, if he somehow manages to use his ability and not get killed
>> during the combat (ie, Memories of Mortality), LfD will indeed save him.
>>
>> Right?
>>
> I think this should follow the same precedent as the Blood Brother Ambush
> ruling (that is, LfD cannot possibly save them if they use their ability).
Good point.
I was thinking that the EMP's effect was just "during strike resolution".
But, yes, it is "at the end of combat".

So you could play LfD.
But then LfD would end combat (card text), and the EMP would be burned (card text).



I think the ruling you are referring to is the below which states Heaven´s Gate cannot save the EMP as per the linked ruling which points to the above ruling...making it the same conclusion that "at the end of combat" happens after combat.

> Just a quick query about the interaction of two cards that I can't
> find a specific resolution to.
>
> If an Escaped Mental Patient uses its special text to strike with
> aggravated damage during combat can it be saved from burning by
> Heaven's Gate?
No.

groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/a3fb69badc08dbdf


When LSJ then continues in the same thread stating one can play multiple Heaven´s Gate and at the end EMP burns to its own card text doesn´t make logical sense (probably he didnt check the text of Heaven´s Gate)

> I can't save EMP if it strike aggro and takes damage and is burned
> during strike resolution , cause if i play Heaven Gate, combat ends
> and EMP is burned due to his card text? And I can't play second Heaven
> Gate to prevent it?

You could play a second Heaven's Gate. But then the EMP would still burn when
combat ends. And a third and a fourth. Eventually when you stop playing Heaven's
Gates, the EMP burns.

Last edit: 01 Jun 2022 16:15 by inm8.

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