Lorenzo Detuono and Imposing Phantasm
27 May 2022 21:14 #105325
by beslin igor
But Psyche text and rules are changes after LSJ time,and Psyche is played during end of round now
Replied by beslin igor on topic Lorenzo Detuono and Imposing Phantasm
No.Is "After combat ends" and "at the end of combat" the same time window?
"At the end of combat" first (still in combat), then "after combat" (no longer in combat).If not which one resolves first? If yes does the player get to order the effects?
Question on the above rulings,
Psyche!´s original wording was "at the end of a combat" and was considered to be played "after combat"/outside of combat (references in the linked rulings below),
is this to be taken as a ruling that "at the end of combat" no longer means "after combat"?
LSJ wrote:
Psyche! is played after combat. See the online rulings list.
LSJ wrote:
Note: superior Psyche! is played at the end of combat (so,
technically, after combat) by card text, so can still be used after
a strike: end combat.
But Psyche text and rules are changes after LSJ time,and Psyche is played during end of round now
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29 May 2022 13:28 #105332
by Ankha
"At the end of combat" and "when combat ends" were the previous wordings used by the following cards:
"when combat ends":
"at the end of combat":
This timing is a bit of a grey zone. For some cards, it's not in combat (Psyche! or Coordinate attacks), for some others it's still in combat but not after: for instance, a vampire created by Illusions of the Kindred who is burned in combat could either be burned (in combat) or removed from the game by IotK's cardtext (the player's choice). Or an Escaped Mental Patient could be saved for a fraction of second by Heaven's Gate (a combat card) before being burned again "at the end of combat".
For others, it doesn't seem to matter (gaining blood from Taunt the Cage Beast).
Finally, for some, there's probably a loophole (could Yawp Court's damage be prevented?)
So technically, "at the end of combat" and "when combat ends" are handled before "after combat" (or at worse, at the same time).
Some cards have already been changed to make the distinction between cards played in combat (Psyche! is now "if combat is about to end", which is the last stop before the combat ends for real). Others have been left with the older wording.
To make things clear, here are the correct timings:
Now "after combat ends":
Now "if combat is about to end":
Replied by Ankha on topic Lorenzo Detuono and Imposing Phantasm
But Psyche text and rules are changes after LSJ time,and Psyche is played during end of round now
The question isn’t about Psyche! but about the ruling Ankha gave for the meaning and timing of the phrasing “at the end of combat”.
LSJ ruled that “at the end of combat” (that was used in the original text of Psyche!) meant and had its timing “after combat”/outside of combat which the below isn’t aligned with.
"At the end of combat" and "when combat ends" were the previous wordings used by the following cards:
"when combat ends":
- Darkness Within
- Expiate
- Imposing Phantasm
- Molotov Cocktail
"at the end of combat":
- Blood Brother Ambush
- Conscripted Statue
- Coordinate Attacks
- Escaped Mental Patient
- Horrid Reality
- Illusions of the Kindred
- Lorenzo Detuono
- Psyche!
- Taunt the Caged Beast
- Trap
- Violet Tremain
- Yawp Court
This timing is a bit of a grey zone. For some cards, it's not in combat (Psyche! or Coordinate attacks), for some others it's still in combat but not after: for instance, a vampire created by Illusions of the Kindred who is burned in combat could either be burned (in combat) or removed from the game by IotK's cardtext (the player's choice). Or an Escaped Mental Patient could be saved for a fraction of second by Heaven's Gate (a combat card) before being burned again "at the end of combat".
For others, it doesn't seem to matter (gaining blood from Taunt the Cage Beast).
Finally, for some, there's probably a loophole (could Yawp Court's damage be prevented?)
So technically, "at the end of combat" and "when combat ends" are handled before "after combat" (or at worse, at the same time).
Some cards have already been changed to make the distinction between cards played in combat (Psyche! is now "if combat is about to end", which is the last stop before the combat ends for real). Others have been left with the older wording.
To make things clear, here are the correct timings:
Now "after combat ends":
- Blood Brother Ambush: errata
- Conscripted Statue: had been already errated by LSJ
- Darkness Within: already in print
- Escaped Mental Patient: errata, + reversal on the Heaven's Gate vs EMP ruling
- Expiate: errata
- Horrid Reality: errata
- Illusions of the Kindred: errata
- Imposing Phantasm: errata
- Lorenzo Detuono: errata
- Molotov Cocktail: errata
- Taunt the Caged Beast: errata
- Trap: errata
- Violet Tremain: errata
- Yawp Court: errata
Now "if combat is about to end":
- Coordinate Attacks: errata
- Psyche!: already in print
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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01 Jun 2022 08:25 - 01 Jun 2022 08:26 #105367
by Ankha
"At the end of combat" can mean different things, for instance it can happen during combat ( EMP vs Heaven's Gate ):
So my ruling is only about Lorenzo Detuono. I'm working on the different cases, but this is still in progress.
Replied by Ankha on topic Lorenzo Detuono and Imposing Phantasm
Found another ruling from LSJ where he explicitly states the timing window of Psyche! (old wording: at the end of a combat) and Jalal Sayad (old wording: after completing combat) are the same.
LSJ wrote:
> just asking again here (since i did'n get answered elsewhere on this thread)
> :
>
> "at the end of a combat"
> (psyche)
> and
> "after completing combat"
> (jalal sayad, akram )
>
> represent the same time segment?
Psyche! has been ruled to be played after combat, as stated many times
already, yes.
After combat has the same timing as after combat, yes.
Ankha can you please confirm that your ruling in this thread changes the timing of "at the end of combat" and "after combat" to be two different once and overrules previous rulings.
"At the end of combat" can mean different things, for instance it can happen during combat ( EMP vs Heaven's Gate ):
So my ruling is only about Lorenzo Detuono. I'm working on the different cases, but this is still in progress.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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