Limit master cards?

we have master cards that, in a way, cost less than a master (trifles)

so why not master cards that cost more than one? for example, adding something like "When you play Ashur Tablets (or whatever other master people think is problematic) skip your next master phase action" that way regular decks can still play them (but every other turn) and MMPA decks are more limited in how many they can play, yet the functionality basically stays the same. I like the idea of a few of the really powerful masters actually costing more than one master phase, might work for Pentex, for example - and some cards already sorta do that anyway, by making you pay extra MPA for an effect, like investments and stuff.

Another nice thing about this, is that like Trifle, this could easily be keyworded.

vtesocrates wrote:

Chaitan wrote:

vtesocrates wrote:

Are you saying that if nobody plays MMPA, you won't be able to get rid of a Sudden every turn?

No.

Then explain "Since you depend on other methuselahs cardflow it is hard to get rid of a stack of Wash/Sudden."

Context. Read the entire thing from a viewpoint where I criticize wash and sudden as a potential counter to MMPA.

But since you want to bring it up again. Two reasons. First, in order for it to be a counter you need include more master out-of-turn cancel cards in your deck and since you are limited in the amount you can play it scales poorly compared to MMPA.

Second. Normal master cards simply has a better card flow than master out-of-turn cancel cards for reasons I have already pointed out. A master card can be played instantly in the master phase (with exceptions of course). A master out-of-turn cancel card can not be played at any point during a master phase action without fullfulling a series of heavy requirements. This subtle difference inheritably makes those cards harder to play and stacking more of them scales poorly compared to MMPA decks.

Granted, a MMPA player on the table increases the chance of you actually being able to play one sudden per turn.

Chaitan wrote:

vtesocrates wrote:

Chaitan wrote:

vtesocrates wrote:

Are you saying that if nobody plays MMPA, you won't be able to get rid of a Sudden every turn?

No.

Then explain "Since you depend on other methuselahs cardflow it is hard to get rid of a stack of Wash/Sudden."

Context. Read the entire thing from a viewpoint where I criticize wash and sudden as a potential counter to MMPA.

I can't speak for vtesocrates but, in context, reading the entire thing, you say that Sudden/Wash won't work as a useful defence against MMPA and that they're hard to get rid of.

And, having read the rest of your response, you're still giving the impression (even with context) that your players sit around flailing their arms in their master phase, rather than playing some of the strongest cards in the game, regularly, for their own benefit. Because Wash-ing masters is, apparently, oh so very hard. I weep for you.

Chaitan wrote:

But since you want to bring it up again. Two reasons. First, in order for it to be a counter you need include more master out-of-turn cancel cards in your deck and since you are limited in the amount you can play it scales poorly compared to MMPA.

Uh. You claim they're hard to get rid of, but are now saying that you can't make them a counter. That's two different things.

Even if you can't defeat MMPA with Wash, you can still easily play Wash.

Chaitan wrote:

Second. Normal master cards simply has a better card flow than master out-of-turn cancel cards for reasons I have already pointed out. A master card can be played instantly in the master phase (with exceptions of course). A master out-of-turn cancel card can not be played at any point during a master phase action without fullfulling a series of heavy requirements.

Heavy requirements? My prey plays Villein, I play Wash. Much like my predator plays Parity Shift, I play Delaying Tactics. You play Bum's Rush, I play Majesty.

These are really not heavy requirements.

Chaitan wrote:

Granted, a MMPA player on the table increases the chance of you actually being able to play one sudden per turn.

So in an average game, you are regularly finding that neither your predator nor your prey plays a strong master card? Your prey doesn't really often play Villein followed by Giant's Blood? Villein, followed by Ventrue Headquarters? Vessel, followed by Dreams of the Sphinx? Aye twice? Your predator isn't trying to hit you with Villein followed by Pentex Subversion?

jamesatzephyr wrote:

And, having read the rest of your response, you're still giving the impression (even with context) that your players sit around flailing their arms in their master phase, rather than playing some of the strongest cards in the game, regularly, for their own benefit. Because Wash-ing masters is, apparently, oh so very hard. I weep for you.

Really ? For someone consistently asking to raise the debate, avoid calling names and refrain from trolling, you seem perfectly in harmony with your ideas.

Reyda wrote:

Really ? For someone consistently asking to raise the debate, avoid calling names and refrain from trolling, you seem perfectly in harmony with your ideas.

Uh, pointing out that someone is giving the impression that their players don't use master cards - which is fundamentally a really bad thing for players to be doing - is neither name-calling nor trolling.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Uh, pointing out that someone is giving the impression that their players don't use master cards - which is fundamentally a really bad thing for players to be doing - is neither name-calling nor trolling.

Your logic is sound so the appearance of ad hominem hyperbole is unnecessary.

My whole point about playing more Sudden Reversal and Wash is that collectively that strategy can thwart many MMPA decks. Kind of like herd immunity. If everyone played with 2 Sudden Reversals or Washes, then they could fairly efficiently stop the MMPA deck at a critical time. However, Methuselahs are greedy and selfish and don't often have this mentality.

If everyone hates weenie decks, then everyone should play with Scourge of the Enochians and they would disappear from the metagame. But, people don't do that. If Ashur Tablets becomes too good in the metagame, there are natural ways that this is tempered though contesting of Nana, Cybele and Anson. I still believe that if everyone had unlimited numbers of Ashur Tablets, that the problem would be lessened.

FWIW, 27 TWDs with Ashur Tablets since 4/1/2010 (HttB). Of those, 20 had Anson, Cybele or Nana Buruku. Poland led the way with decks using Ashurs and other vampires.