Expansion Update

brandonsantacruz wrote:

Again, who does it harm to make proxies?

Been through this previously, but the biggest thing most certainly is the marketability of the game for the next publisher.

"Please pick up the game. Don't mind the fact that no player actually needs to buy any of your new products, or reprints, since you can proxy all you like in VTES nowadays. lol"


You wanna proxy cards in friendly games? -go ahead and have a blast!
You wanna do the same in official tournaments? -error 404

Pendargon wrote:

brandonsantacruz wrote:

Again, who does it harm to make proxies?

People who take great effort and part their funds NOT to proxy.

I play also a lot of tabletop wargaming, 40k and Warmachine. I HATE when lazy players coming with empty bases, or completely different units "representing" and "proxying" something else.

I own an extensive vtes collection, with huge number of cards and very rare "rares", but, for instance, i do not own a single copy of enkil cog. I have NEVER proxied it, "Just because i can, and it is sooo good and everybody should have it". It is the way i work. And i have never even desired to proxy it, instead i desire to have it and THEN play it. Collecting is a big part of the hobby, this is NOT chess.

I don't quite follow this argument, does the fact that others do not value your collection and use proxies dimish the value you place in your own collection? I always found that collecting has it's own innate value much like some people collect bottlecaps, while I don't care about bottlecaps those collectors dont find their value dimished by the fact that some might not share their convictions. I might not care about a certain bottlecap from a certain time, and if I was presented with a fake, I would not care as long as it kept my bottle capped. To be honest, considering the fact that no new cards are being made, it seems selfish to me to stop new players from enjoying the game fully.

I do agree with Lönkka though, screwing over retailers is probably the best argument to wait on this ruling. Retailers have a hard enough time and most of them are nice enough to provide gaming rooms, so screwing them over would be really ungrateful. Sooner or later though, if the game is not picked up, proxy' will have to be allowed if the game is going to grow.

The bottlecap analogy is flawed. Bottlecaps have zero monotary value. A better analogy would be a coins or stamps collection. Certainly you would value a stamps collection worthless if all of the stamps were actually photocopies from a catalogy.

To be honest, considering the fact that no new cards are being made, it seems selfish to me to stop new players from enjoying the game fully.

You can *already* "enjoy the game fully" (whatever that may mean) on JoL or in your local proxy-whatever-you-want playgroup. Fuck, you can organize your own "we allow proxies" unsanctioned tournament. You just can't play VEKN sanctioned tournaments with fake cards.

What if the thing you are craving is something imaginary? When I have a copy of Arika, I do not have Arika, I have a piece of cardboard that we agree is Arika.

I presume you also believe you don't have 100 dollars, but instead have a piece of paper that we agree is 100 dollars?

Sooner or later though, if the game is not picked up, proxy' will have to be allowed if the game is going to grow.

Except that proxy or not, the game will not grow anyway. V:TES is an insanely complicated game in a niche genre with a niche theme. Attracting new players has been ranging from very hard to impossible even when the game was still being printed. It's an illusion that allowing proxies makes the game attractive for new players. The idea alone makes me giggle.

Just try and imagine yourself being introduced to a new game, where all the components are home-made and photocopied. To top it off the rules are complicated if not outright confusing, generic rules are constantly overruled by momentary rules and to top it off the game takes 2 hours to play, and half the time you're going to be completely unable to do anything for those 2 hours" I'm fairly convinced lack of cards i not what has been keeping the game from growing.

Don't get me wrong, I love V:TES, but in from an objective point of view it's actually a pretty bad game. It's confusing, complicated and has a bad ruleset.

A significant amount of new players at this point in time is just not going to happen. End of story.

On the other hand, what allowing proxy's on VEKN sanctioned tournaments will do is piss off a lot of those that supported V:TES for years by making their valuable collection worthless. In exchange for alienating those players, you get a few players that couldn't be bothered to buy cards when they were available that for some reason think they can win tournaments when they can proxy 15 Villeins and 5 Enkil Cogs.

The argument here is not "it's better for the game to allow proxies", because frankly, it's not. I would be detrimental even. The argument appear to be "waah waah cry cry I don't have the cards I want and I don't want to spend money to get them".

How about a 5 proxi limmit?

Izaak wrote:

The bottlecap analogy is flawed. Bottlecaps have zero monotary value. A better analogy would be a coins or stamps collection. Certainly you would value a stamps collection worthless if all of the stamps were actually photocopies from a catalogy.

The argument here is not "it's better for the game to allow proxies", because frankly, it's not. I would be detrimental even. The argument appear to be "waah waah cry cry I don't have the cards I want and I don't want to spend money to get them".

I resent that you think I'm whining about not wanting to spend money on cards and just want them for free, I have an extnsive collection and would be one of the people "losing money" if proxy's would be allowed. But frankly, I never put any monetary value in my V:tes colletion. Basically the game is so small that you can wipe our ass with cards and save money on toiletpaper if you want to make money out of it in any extent. While I personally don't need proxy's for my tournament decks I often have to lend out cards to newer players so that they can be competitive in tournaments.

As for new players, we've had a growth of about 5-10 new players in stockholm the last year or so and I believe that more interest among several players would be increased if availability of cards was easier, because alot of people enjoy the game but collecting is just not a submeta that everyone's idea of fun.